another abuse gang
Discussion
Rare said:
Why on a thread about grooming gangs in the UK is a link regarding White British People carrying out crimes abroad anything but whataboutism ?
This thread, raised to discuss a single issue, has been subject to 'swerve and deflection' from the outset. From white paedos, to priests, to now sex tourism, it's bound to happen. It's unsurprising, but they fail to start a new thread on the subject knowing that this issue is of particular concern due to the small sub-set of the UK populace committing industrial levels of grooming, rape, abuse, violence and threatening behaviour. This thread is not just about the group involved, but about the complicity of the various authorities including the police, social services, councils, etc.Yes, horrors occur all over the world, but this is a specific group acting here under the nose of the authorities who confounded all efforts of the children, parents and others who tried to get something done about it. A group of people trafficking children across towns and cities to abusers who were sometmes queing up to rape, spit on, burn, urinate on and demean vulnerable children. But still they deflect, deflect, swerve, excuse...
TTwiggy said:
It's not a single white person, it's becoming epidemic since the loss of the conventional tourist trade to Ghana following the closure of Thomas Cook. Have a google, there have been a few articles written about it.
I presume you mean The Gambia, not Ghana. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10608517/inside-paed...
Sorry to be picky but details matter, as has been pointed out many times on this thread.
jshell said:
This thread, raised to discuss a single issue, has been subject to 'swerve and deflection' from the outset. From white paedos, to priests, to now sex tourism, it's bound to happen. It's unsurprising, but they fail to start a new thread on the subject knowing that this issue is of particular concern due to the small sub-set of the UK populace committing industrial levels of grooming, rape, abuse, violence and threatening behaviour. This thread is not just about the group involved, but about the complicity of the various authorities including the police, social services, councils, etc.
Yes, horrors occur all over the world, but this is a specific group acting here under the nose of the authorities who confounded all efforts of the children, parents and others who tried to get something done about it. A group of people trafficking children across towns and cities to abusers who were sometmes queing up to rape, spit on, burn, urinate on and demean vulnerable children. But still they deflect, deflect, swerve, excuse...
And you continue to miss/ignore the point. Yes, lots of things went badly wrong here to allow this to happen. So saying 'they do it 'cos of Allah' is spectacularly ridiculous. But every few pages, someone says effectively that. But when someone tries to point this out, and provide examples where doing similar would be similarly ridiculous, all you get is shouts of 'whataboutism'.Yes, horrors occur all over the world, but this is a specific group acting here under the nose of the authorities who confounded all efforts of the children, parents and others who tried to get something done about it. A group of people trafficking children across towns and cities to abusers who were sometmes queing up to rape, spit on, burn, urinate on and demean vulnerable children. But still they deflect, deflect, swerve, excuse...
2Btoo said:
TTwiggy said:
It's not a single white person, it's becoming epidemic since the loss of the conventional tourist trade to Ghana following the closure of Thomas Cook. Have a google, there have been a few articles written about it.
I presume you mean The Gambia, not Ghana. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10608517/inside-paed...
Sorry to be picky but details matter, as has been pointed out many times on this thread.
TTwiggy said:
And you continue to miss/ignore the point. Yes, lots of things went badly wrong here to allow this to happen. So saying 'they do it 'cos of Allah' is spectacularly ridiculous. But every few pages, someone says effectively that. But when someone tries to point this out, and provide examples where doing similar would be similarly ridiculous, all you get is shouts of 'whataboutism'.
All monsters have mechanisms and constructs that enable them. For Catholic priests it was their position within the community combined with unrestricted access to kids plus celibacy rules plus a whole raft of other details. It's a cake mix that produces what we have seen. For these gangs the mechanisms are different. To deny that Islam is not an ingredient in that cake mix would be wholly wrong imho. We can debate the amount and it most certainly is not all 'cos of Allah'. But to deny any presence would be wrong.
Countdown said:
ceesvdelst said:
Everyone cares about money, but a few of the Muslims I have met obsess about it far more than "we" do.
I know what you mean. Take PH as an example - if there's one thing that's rarely mentioned it's references to money or wealth.
TTwiggy said:
And you continue to miss/ignore the point. Yes, lots of things went badly wrong here to allow this to happen. So saying 'they do it 'cos of Allah' is spectacularly ridiculous. But every few pages, someone says effectively that. But when someone tries to point this out, and provide examples where doing similar would be similarly ridiculous, all you get is shouts of 'whataboutism'.
No. You miss the point, by a country mile. I did not use the word 'Allah' or 'Pakistani', you brought that into this exchange.Your's is just another example of thread deflection.
andymadmak said:
All monsters have mechanisms and constructs that enable them. For Catholic priests it was their position within the community combined with unrestricted access to kids plus celibacy rules plus a whole raft of other details. It's a cake mix that produces what we have seen.
For these gangs the mechanisms are different. To deny that Islam is not an ingredient in that cake mix would be wholly wrong imho. We can debate the amount and it most certainly is not all 'cos of Allah'. But to deny any presence would be wrong.
I agree with a lot of that. What’s your evidence for the last point?For these gangs the mechanisms are different. To deny that Islam is not an ingredient in that cake mix would be wholly wrong imho. We can debate the amount and it most certainly is not all 'cos of Allah'. But to deny any presence would be wrong.
jshell said:
TTwiggy said:
And you continue to miss/ignore the point. Yes, lots of things went badly wrong here to allow this to happen. So saying 'they do it 'cos of Allah' is spectacularly ridiculous. But every few pages, someone says effectively that. But when someone tries to point this out, and provide examples where doing similar would be similarly ridiculous, all you get is shouts of 'whataboutism'.
No. You miss the point, by a country mile. I did not use the word 'Allah' or 'Pakistani', you brought that into this exchange.Your's is just another example of thread deflection.
TTwiggy said:
jshell said:
TTwiggy said:
And you continue to miss/ignore the point. Yes, lots of things went badly wrong here to allow this to happen. So saying 'they do it 'cos of Allah' is spectacularly ridiculous. But every few pages, someone says effectively that. But when someone tries to point this out, and provide examples where doing similar would be similarly ridiculous, all you get is shouts of 'whataboutism'.
No. You miss the point, by a country mile. I did not use the word 'Allah' or 'Pakistani', you brought that into this exchange.Your's is just another example of thread deflection.
jshell said:
And as has been said, that is often a reaction to the 'oh look, a squirrel'! That is what prolonged the agony for those poor children in the first place. It happens here too, if YOU look through the thread. You're not the first to do it, just the most recent and what that does is make people focus on the actual issue for discussion: That small subset of our population responsible for this well organised abuse. Every time you say: 'what about them...', YOU are displaying the deflection that the authorities exercised when adding to the agony of those poor girls who were raped and abused over and over again.
I really don't know how to make myself any clearer. I'm not doing a 'look at them', I'm pointing out how preposterous it is to focus on one aspect.I'l try one more time. If someone like Owen Jones said that the reason white blokes were going to the Gambia and abusing black kids was due to their white privilege and colonial history, the reaction on here would be incredulity and mockery and anger. But apparently it's ok for some people to say that abuse in Rotherham and elsewhere is 'because Islam'.
TTwiggy said:
jshell said:
And as has been said, that is often a reaction to the 'oh look, a squirrel'! That is what prolonged the agony for those poor children in the first place. It happens here too, if YOU look through the thread. You're not the first to do it, just the most recent and what that does is make people focus on the actual issue for discussion: That small subset of our population responsible for this well organised abuse. Every time you say: 'what about them...', YOU are displaying the deflection that the authorities exercised when adding to the agony of those poor girls who were raped and abused over and over again.
I really don't know how to make myself any clearer. I'm not doing a 'look at them', I'm pointing out how preposterous it is to focus on one aspect.I'l try one more time.
TTwiggy said:
If someone like Owen Jones said that the reason white blokes were going to the Gambia and abusing black kids was due to their white privilege and colonial history, the reaction on here would be incredulity and mockery and anger. But apparently it's ok for some people to say that abuse in Rotherham and elsewhere is 'because Islam'.
You really don't get it, do you? This thread is about one group, their actions, their motives, the cover-ups, the apologists, the deflectionists, etc, et-fecking-c.Again, YOU are bringing Islam into it through YOUR actions. YOU are the one going on about other cases - though you haven't dropped the Catholic priest deflection yet, there's still time... We KNOW about the other cases and we'll happily discuss it with you once you start another thread, but until you do, you're just another obvious part of the problem with this issue.
jshell said:
You really don't get it, do you? This thread is about one group, their actions, their motives, the cover-ups, the apologists, the deflectionists, etc, et-fecking-c.
Again, YOU are bringing Islam into it through YOUR actions. YOU are the one going on about other cases - though you haven't dropped the Catholic priest deflection yet, there's still time... We KNOW about the other cases and we'll happily discuss it with you once you start another thread, but until you do, you're just another obvious part of the problem with this issue.
It’s not condescension, it’s bloody frustration that no matter what I say you seem determined to read something else entirely.Again, YOU are bringing Islam into it through YOUR actions. YOU are the one going on about other cases - though you haven't dropped the Catholic priest deflection yet, there's still time... We KNOW about the other cases and we'll happily discuss it with you once you start another thread, but until you do, you're just another obvious part of the problem with this issue.
No comment at all on what reaction something like that would have if Owen Jones said it? You can’t even do me the courtesy of addressing it at all?
Have you read this thread? I didn’t bring Islam into it, the people who think that Islam is the only driving factor brought Islam into it.
And how, exactly, am I part of the problem? This is a favoured attack where this subject is concerned as no doubt it gives you some sense of moral superiority. But as I am not Muslim, not Pakistani, not a child abuser, not a copper, nor a social worker, and I have no connection to these cases or ability to influence them in any way, could you please indulge me with an explanation?
andymadmak said:
All monsters have mechanisms and constructs that enable them. For Catholic priests it was their position within the community combined with unrestricted access to kids plus celibacy rules plus a whole raft of other details. It's a cake mix that produces what we have seen.
For these gangs the mechanisms are different. To deny that Islam is not an ingredient in that cake mix would be wholly wrong imho. We can debate the amount and it most certainly is not all 'cos of Allah'. But to deny any presence would be wrong.
I've asked this before - which part of what they did has any roots in "Islam"? I've probably attended more Mosque classes than most on PH and some of the main things that the bearded bloke at the front kept harping on about was No sex outside of marriage, NO alcohol, NO drugs. If we did then we'd be spending all eternity in hellfire and damnation. For these gangs the mechanisms are different. To deny that Islam is not an ingredient in that cake mix would be wholly wrong imho. We can debate the amount and it most certainly is not all 'cos of Allah'. But to deny any presence would be wrong.
Now the main factors in these cases include all three of the above. ie the exact OPPOSITE of what's taught in Mosques.
Hence my quetion - what has it got to do with Islam?
In relation to the other accusations about "deflection" some people are adamant on making this a religious/cultural issue. THAT'S the only reason other people keep mentioning other cases - to show that it's NOT unique to any one group of people. It's just a fact that certain men of All backgrounds,will take advantage of young women if they are able to. That doesn't mean that we should ignore any group in particular but the continued focus on religion suggests that anybody from the same background is somehow at risk of committing the same offence.
TTwiggy said:
It’s not condescension, it’s bloody frustration that no matter what I say you seem determined to read something else entirely.
No comment at all on what reaction something like that would have if Owen Jones said it? You can’t even do me the courtesy of addressing it at all?
Have you read this thread? I didn’t bring Islam into it, the people who think that Islam is the only driving factor brought Islam into it.
And how, exactly, am I part of the problem? This is a favoured attack where this subject is concerned as no doubt it gives you some sense of moral superiority. But as I am not Muslim, not Pakistani, not a child abuser, not a copper, nor a social worker, and I have no connection to these cases or ability to influence them in any way, could you please indulge me with an explanation?
I have read the entire thread over time, of course. What we see here is endless attempts to divert the subject matter from the core issues. There may be people who think that Islam is the overwhelming factor, but they demonstrably and repeatedly in the minority. However, attempts to remove the issue of religion borne attitudes to those 'kaffirs', 'white meat' and 'white trash' - as many of the defendents called them - will always be seen as deflective. There is clearly a pattern of behaviour by this small subset, once described as 'Muslim, with the vast majority originating in a small province of Pakistan'. Education is an issue, but that is also an issue with lack of integration. Immigration without integration and compliance with law and attitudes is a recipe for disaster. Islam is not the driving factor, but it IS an intextricable factor in the attitudes of some individuals towards these vulnerable children. In my opinion that is not the same for sex tourism or paedophile priests, both of whom are more likely to just be paedophiles. ALL of them of course should have their eyes washed in acid, molten metal administered anally and fed their own genitals.No comment at all on what reaction something like that would have if Owen Jones said it? You can’t even do me the courtesy of addressing it at all?
Have you read this thread? I didn’t bring Islam into it, the people who think that Islam is the only driving factor brought Islam into it.
And how, exactly, am I part of the problem? This is a favoured attack where this subject is concerned as no doubt it gives you some sense of moral superiority. But as I am not Muslim, not Pakistani, not a child abuser, not a copper, nor a social worker, and I have no connection to these cases or ability to influence them in any way, could you please indulge me with an explanation?
Now, read this extract from Hansard and tell me that religion has nothing to do with this:
I have had the painful privilege of being alongside and trying to help some of those who have suffered horrific abuse by grooming gangs. They have described, in heart-wrenching detail, the vulnerability of young girls to persistent, brutal and repeated rape. Noble Lords may be aware of the case of Sarah—not her real name—which has been reported as one of the worst sex grooming cases on record. She describes how she was kidnapped aged 15, imprisoned in a house, forced to learn the Koran and beaten when she made mistakes. She was held as a sex slave for 12 years and was repeatedly raped by different members of the grooming gang. She had three forced Sharia marriages, eight forced abortions and two live births. Her abusers referred to her as “white trash”. They forced her to wear Islamic dress and permitted her to speak only Urdu and Punjabi. She has not received the help she needs from social services and is frequently suicidal.
This is well worth a read and is quite specific in terms of the communities and religion involved. This is not the Sun, DM or Express, this is Hansard: https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2019-05-14/deb...
Now, tell me again that radical Islam can be excluded as a factor.
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