another abuse gang

[JuanCarlosFandango]

Troubleupmill

I know they turned a blind eye to some degree but there are some who seem to pretty much believe the Nazis were a Christian fundamentalist party.

Jshell
I hadn't seen your quote when I replied, apoligies for posting on the hoof! Clearly there was a strong sense of "us and them" about it. However I think your point that "Islam is not the driving factor" is what I was getting at in a less concise way. However it seems that some believe it is the driving factor rather than just the dividing line.

FWIW I think that is true in most cases where religion is cited as the cause of most wars other ills. It is not a case of religion driving people to violence and hatred so much as religion being the (or a) dividing line between different groups.

So with that more clear definition does anyone think Islam was actually the driving force of these gangs rather than a dividing line which enabled them to see their victims as lesser people?

[TTwiggy]

I’m sorry, but despite your protestations you do seem fixated on that Islamic angle.

That case you highlighted is awful - as are all the abuse cases - but I would say, from what I’ve read about these gangs, that it is atypical.

[Alpinestars]

jshell said:

Do they identify as British? After all, that's the issue you raised. I suspect they don't but I'm open to be proven wrong. So, do they?

I suspect they would say they are British, but if asked “do you value/follow British values” (whatever they are), I suspect they would say no.

If asked about being Muslim, I suspect they would say “yes”. If asked do they practice Islam, I suspect they’d say “no”.

I hope you’re getting the point.

If you’re after attributes, they ARE British. No less than they are Muslims.

[jshell]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Troubleupmill

I know they turned a blind eye to some degree but there are some who seem to pretty much believe the Nazis were a Christian fundamentalist party.

Jshell
I hadn't seen your quote when I replied, apoligies for posting on the hoof! Clearly there was a strong sense of "us and them" about it. However I think your point that "Islam is not the driving factor" is what I was getting at in a less concise way. However it seems that some believe it is the driving factor rather than just the dividing line.

FWIW I think that is true in most cases where religion is cited as the cause of most wars other ills. It is not a case of religion driving people to violence and hatred so much as religion being the (or a) dividing line between different groups.

So with that more clear definition does anyone think Islam was actually the driving force of these gangs rather than a dividing line which enabled them to see their victims as lesser people?

No probs! The difficulty is in deciding the driving factor. Religious values are accepted as being based on peace, honesty, compassion, care etc. However, many take text out of context or bastardise old prose for their own ends. For example, some of the old Testament texts are simply horrific! www.evilbible.com shows some of the horrors in that book.

That all said, people using the excuse of religion for Ill deeds means that religious influence is firmly a factor that mustn't be ignored.

[jshell]

TTwiggy said:

I’m sorry, but despite your protestations you do seem fixated on that Islamic angle.

That case you highlighted is awful - as are all the abuse cases - but I would say, from what I’ve read about these gangs, that it is atypical.

It may seem that way but in the same vein I wouldn't let the Pakistani, educational, lack of integration or any other link go either.

This was/is horrific. We need to understand it and we need to stop it. BUT, the endless diversions from any of the uncomfortable factors or influence is at the least unhelpful. This thread has seen many try to avoid the religious aspect. That is dishonest. We cannot let any of the factors go without recognition. The same way that stupidly forcing men in the Priesthood to be celibate turns many of them into ticking timebombs. There is the religious aspect of child abuse in the Catholic church, though I'm sure some join for access to kids.

[jshell]

By the way, I'm an equal opportunities critic of all and any organised religion. To me it's based on human weakness and possibly mental illness/vulnerability...

[Alpinestars]

jshell said:

By the way, I'm an equal opportunities critic of all and any organised religion. To me it's based on human weakness and possibly mental illness/vulnerability...

It’s all man made, but doesn’t need a believer to be mentally ill, vulnerable etc. Either way I still don’t see it as a driver. In the same way I don’t see Christianity as the reason some Priests abuse young boys.

[jshell]

Alpinestars said:

It’s all man made, but doesn’t need a believer to be mentally ill, vulnerable etc. Either way I still don’t see it as a driver. In the same way I don’t see Christianity as the reason some Priests abuse young boys.

I believe many people need crutch-like belief systems to make sense of their short lives and avoid feelings of futility. So, to me, the need for religion is a weakness in human character. Same as conspiracy theorists need their crazy belief systems to cling onto.

I've never once called religion a driver but I've always said it can't be ignored as a factor. I'm not anti-Islam, I'm anti religion.

Edited by jshell on Thursday 30th January 21:52

[TTwiggy]

You see, we’re talking about this, disagreeing with some things and agreeing on others but actually getting somewhere and keeping it civil, my frustration comes from those who only want t to focus on one thing.

[Alpinestars]

jshell said:

Alpinestars said:

It’s all man made, but doesn’t need a believer to be mentally ill, vulnerable etc. Either way I still don’t see it as a driver. In the same way I don’t see Christianity as the reason some Priests abuse young boys.

I've never once called it a driver but I've always said it can't be ignored as a factor. I'm not anti-Islam, I'm anti religion.

Nothing can be ignored as a factor. But you should be able to show a clear link shouldn’t you? And Hansard in one case is not that link. There’s plenty of counter arguments could be made against that commentary. And most of the grooming cases we know of.

I suspect people who comment about it not being about Islam, are saying it as a counter to some posters who see it as the be all and end all. Along with “brown people”. “Whataboutism” is a way of showing their bigotry. In the same way I use British as an attribute. It’s not a driver in my view, but is an attribute (albeit irrelevant).

[Rare]

TTwiggy said:

No, I said that a Pakistani committing a hit & run offence was irrelevant to the discussion, and rather smacked of looking for any bad thing done by a Muslim/Pakistani.

Sex tourism to Ghana is relevant in that the crime is similar. But I posted it as an example of picking on one thing and deciding that's the cause: 'They do it because they are Muslim and their book tells them it's ok' v 'They do it because they feel their white privilege gives them permission to abuse black kids'.

Are you going to address this, or are you going to skim past it again? How clearly do I need to spell out that picking on one aspect is at best counterproductive, and at worst indicative of ingrained prejudice?

Edited to add: I never said it was exclusively white British people in Ghana, it's actually white people from a number of countries (Russia and the Netherlands, for instance).

Edited by TTwiggy on Thursday 30th January 15:10

Looking at the reasons for both.

Ghana/Gambia
Why ?
I’m working on the basis that those who prey on really young children have some chemical brain imbalance. I’m not sure I believe in pure evil. They must be wired differently, and like a drug addict find it difficult to stop.

Why young black kids - is it racist ?
No, getting access to white kids on the beach is tricky in the uk. Cambodia and Thailand appear to be more aware of the issue so these people have moved onto the next weakest link, a poor African country.
You may have some that see it as power over a black child, but I don’t believe that is the driver here.
Is it in white European culture to travel abroad to abuse young kids ?
No it’s not, there are damaged / evil individuals here nothing in western culture is supportive of abusing young kids.
When these people end up in jail they are at huge risk, wider uk society would happily beat / kill them in jail. Being a nonce makes you an instant target.
Does their job allow them access ?
Some may try to work with young child but current checks should address this.
Does their religion, unlikely there is nothing in Christian texts suggesting the abuse of young kids.
Is it opportunity?
The travel will take some planning and they travel to find the easiest “prey” going to Africa is hardly an opportunist thing.
A lot of their activity will be done in secrecy, the web has allowed this to grow. Whether alone or with others secrecy is everything.

Rotherham
Because Muslims ....

Is it racist ?
No I don’t believe it is, previously it was Sikhs, who wised up to the issues so they moved onto another group.

Is it culture to groomand abuse white girls ?
I doubt it is in any bodies culture to do so no. However their culture does paint a fairly negative picture of women, their role their freedom male control over them. When a woman has such low status the concept of control / ownership and worth become issues. In many of these countries women are little more than possessions.

If they are British whose culture is this, not ours ?Clearly some of the old culture remains in these poorly integrated areas, but this is an imported culture not a British one.

When they have ended up in court their “society” does not shun them as much as we do with white pedos. They have had supporters shout religious statement in court and family members refuse to believe they have done wrong.
Are they threatened in jail ? I have not heard of such a threat/ risk. Other Muslims in jail don’t appear to try to kill them as soon as they arrive, although I have never been to jail...

Job ?
Much is made of the night time roles many have. It certainly allows more covert movement, but with a poor population I am not sure what jobs people would expect them to have ?
Often the grooming starts by a younger member befriending a girl from school / care home. School does not operate during the night. They have seen girls being picked up from school in broad daylight and driven off.
I doubt many young girls have walked into a cab office or kebab shop and instantly been dragged off and gang raped. I don’t see their job as a big influence.

Opportunity
The nature of the lover boy isn’t opportunistic it is planned and time / effort is spent developing this.

Unlike white pedos using the web with huge secrecy this appeared to be quite open. Older Asian men with young white girlfriends didn’t seem to be an issue.

Religion
There is nothing in their religious texts that says men should abuse white girls. Yes Mohammed may have married a young girl but is that their reason / motive ? Maybe maybe not.

But as with the culture the religion places women in a fairly lowly position. The man is to watch over / be a guardian of women’s clothing. Their vote is worth half a mans etc.
Girls from puberty have to cover their beauty from men, there is nothing wrong with that !!!! What happens if a Muslim man sees a 13 year olds beauty ?

You have men who have such a low opinions of women, even lower opinions of non Muslim women and lower still of one that wears revealing clothing. When you think those girls have no value and are only there to please men it is not a shock that this happens.

You see the same in other countries in their Muslim immigrant communities, and these ones aren’t British or even Pakistani.

But yes they are all men.

[jshell]

TTwiggy said:

You see, we’re talking about this, disagreeing with some things and agreeing on others but actually getting somewhere and keeping it civil, my frustration comes from those who only want t to focus on one thing.

Agreed, but you and others thought I had a single focus so I think there are prejudices all around...

[jshell]

Alpinestars said:

jshell said:

Alpinestars said:

It’s all man made, but doesn’t need a believer to be mentally ill, vulnerable etc. Either way I still don’t see it as a driver. In the same way I don’t see Christianity as the reason some Priests abuse young boys.

I've never once called it a driver but I've always said it can't be ignored as a factor. I'm not anti-Islam, I'm anti religion.

Nothing can be ignored as a factor. But you should be able to show a clear link shouldn’t you? And Hansard in one case is not that link. There’s plenty of counter arguments could be made against that commentary. And most of the grooming cases we know of.

I suspect people who comment about it not being about Islam, are saying it as a counter to some posters who see it as the be all and end all. Along with “brown people”. “Whataboutism” is a way of showing their bigotry. In the same way I use British as an attribute. It’s not a driver in my view, but is an attribute (albeit irrelevant).

I'm not moved to completely disagree but you must know that people can see you as the opposite end of the extreme viewpoint. The main problem is that knowing links exists and proving them to exist are two distinct things. A contributory factor doesn't mean root cause.

[Rare]

Alpinestars said:

It’s all man made, but doesn’t need a believer to be mentally ill, vulnerable etc. Either way I still don’t see it as a driver. In the same way I don’t see Christianity as the reason some Priests abuse young boys.

What do you see as a driver for RC Priests ?

[andymc]

Has this happened elsewhere that Pakistani’s have settled across Europe

[Rare]

andymc said:

Has this happened elsewhere that Pakistani’s have settled across Europe

Pakistanis have a historical link to the uk. There aren’t many on the rest of Europe.

But Holland has seen in with their muslim communities as has France. Which would suggest Pakistan is not the driving force.

[Alpinestars]

Rare said:

What do you see as a driver for RC Priests ?

Same as most of the other cases. An inclination, and the opportunity.

[Alpinestars]

jshell said:

I'm not moved to completely disagree but you must know that people can see you as the opposite end of the extreme viewpoint. The main problem is that knowing links exists and proving them to exist are two distinct things. A contributory factor doesn't mean root cause.

Opposite end of an extreme viewpoint? That makes me non extreme. Which is fine. Prove the point to me, and I’m there. If you (one) can’t, I’ll set out why I disagree, sometimes using provocative points.

And the latter part of your statement, yes. But identifying an attribute in common doesn’t mean that drives, or contributes to the problem. Most of the gangs appear to be into drugs and drink. Can’t see much support for that in the texts. Or raping people.

[Rare]

Alpinestars said:

Rare said:

What do you see as a driver for RC Priests ?

Same as most of the other cases. An inclination, and the opportunity.

You would give no credit to them having to lead a very unnatural lifestyle ?

One that is laid down by their religious instruction ?

I would say the biggest single driver is that they are not allowed to marry, have any form of sexual release and the last naked body they saw was probably a young male in priest training school.

This is 100% due to their religion.

[Ratski83]

andymc said:

Has this happened elsewhere that Pakistani’s have settled across Europe

Holland has the same problem with Moroccan men known as 'loverboys' grooming and pimping out young girls. Sweden's rise in rape and sexual attacks are well documented and watching Ed Balls Euroland just now it seems Germany too has problems with women no feeling safe walking about at night.