another abuse gang

[andymadmak]

I was listening to R4 early evening news yesterday on my way home and there was a bod being interviewed (retired senior Policeman or some such) who basically said that the Newcastle convictions and others such as Rochdale/Derby/Oxford etc etc were in the main part a Pakistani Muslim issue. I have to say I was very surprised that he was as explicit as he was.
He went on to say that, aside from the blind eye being turned by the public services (fear of being branded racist etc) one of the reasons why there are so many of these guys and so many victims is that the wider community of families and friends who in many many cases actually knew what was a going on, did not come forward and report the offences because of some sort of "honour code" . Whilst you may not approve of your uncle Ali shagging a 12 year old white girl, apparently it is considered more important to preserve the honour and reputation of your family and your community rather than bring shame upon them by reporting the offences. How much truth there is in that I don't know, but it does seem to chime with comments made by more than a few posters over the years - posters who were almost always branded as racists for expressing such views.

[andymadmak]

blindswelledrat said:

Lovely story and quite terrible if taken at face value.
Conversely, we have her toned down side of this story which has been further toned down by you.
Objectively I would question the likelihood of her being accused of racism for merely reporting that the girl was going off with these men. That likelihood being close to zero. Given that the actual email is from a social worker makes it even more unlikely. I have met and known a number of social workers and they do that job because they care about the people under their charge. Further, they have nothing to gain whatsoever by brushing an accusation like this under the carpet.It doesn't make sense.
So given the following three options:

1) The social worker was so PC she would prefer a young girl to be raped rather than investigate rapists who were Asian
2) Rose was racist and wasn't taken seriously and she is pretending she is not and a man on the internet is agreeing with her
3) The whole thing is made up bks

I'd say its a close run thing between 2 and 3.



(I stress I am not denying that there has been a problem of over-PCness in political circles, I am merely saying that actual racism is also a problem. The two are not mutually exclusive)

there is at least a 4th option.:

The story is largely true, but the social worker was brow beaten by her boss to assume that Rose was a racist.. This was easy for the SW to do because the consequences for the SW of taking Rose's side would almost certainly have been career suicide. The boss took the position that he/she did for broadly the same reasons - after all an accusation of racism against a Public Sector worker is pretty much the kiss of death. Moreover, EVERYONE knows these girls are just trouble makers and slags so why risk your career for one, no matter the nature of the allegations ( You might remember that there is some evidence that this was the view taken by certain senior Police officers...)

[andymadmak]

rscott said:

Can I ask why your quote doesn't match the article you linked to? The two words in bold aren't present in that.
.

The Muslim reference appears higher up the article:

Telegraph article said:

The failure of certain parts of the Asian community to integrate into British society has led to gangs of British Pakistani Muslim men​ targeting white women with drink and drugs before raping and sexually abusing them, an anti-extremism think tank claims.

[andymadmak]

rscott said:

That's not a quote from the Quilliam report though, is it.
Does the report actually have data to back that claim, or is there an assumption that because they're British Pakistanis they're also Muslims?


Is their abhorrent attitude to women due to their Pakistani background, their interpretation of their religion, or a combination of the two?

Ahh, OK, I take your point. Sorry I thought you referred to the article. My mistake. I haven't read the report so i don't know the answer. Sorry.

[andymadmak]

This thread was not started specifically to talk about the asian abuse gang phenomenon, (problem, issue, or whatever one wants to call it). It was started to try to understand how groups of men can actually engage in these kinds of acts together, how it can come about that you can have such large groups of like minded individuals. - I think issue is that most of us (all of us?) simply struggle with how this whole thing comes to pass. If any normal person were approached by friends and told "hey I've got a sexy 12 year old here, fancy a turn on her" they'd be calling the police pronto (probably after they had thumped the inviter! )

There have been threads in the past on PH (I have been on here toooooooo long) about the problems with catholic priests (for example) and how, in too many cases, they used their position of authority to abuse the children entrusted to their care by devout parents, and how the mechanisms of positions of trust and social /religious structures combined to ensure that the scandals were either not believed or covered up until recent years.
I also remember a long running thread about one Jimmy Savile and how he was able to take advantage of his celebrity and power to seemingly abuse at will, with impunity.
So it is fair to say that discussions about other abusers have been aired openly here, and I don't think that anyone would deny that there are problems in various parts of society.

This thread seems to have morphed into a wide ranging discussion about the specific problem of asian (Pakistani) grooming gangs. In that sense whataboutery towards other groups and individuals coupled with the repeated pointing to statistics about the numbers of white paedophiles are likely to be interpreted as deflection. One would be incredibly surprised if , in a predominantly white country the majority of crimes of any sort were not being carried out by white people.
The problem with deflection tactics in regards to the Pakistani muslim gangs is that they are seen as seeking to thwart any investigation into the cultural, religious and social reasons for how this particular sub set of abusers come together to do what they do. By doing this, by refusing to acknowledge that this particular subset have specific characteristics that need to be understood if they are to be prevented in the future, then not only do we run the risk of there being thousands more victims in the future, but we also run the risks of deep, irreconcilable and potentially violent fractures between mainstream society and a minority ethnic community.

It is quite understandable that decent members of any minority community are going to be defensive about things when faced with a never ending stream of the worst kind of stories centred on the scum in their own communities. Deflection and whataboutery are not the answer. But neither is it the case that the decent folk should always have to speak up against the scum who share the same cultural heritage just so as to appease the angry mob. Instead, openness and a willingness to be a part of the wider solution should characterise the way forward for everyone.

FTR I have zero doubt that Alpinestars and Countdown are decent blokes. I also do not doubt that they are as appalled by what is coming into the public domain now as any other decent person in the country.

[andymadmak]

desolate said:

I'd also like to see the police and social services role examined......

This is a vital point that I think needs to be examined far more. I have read that both police and social services turned a blind eye to what was going on for several reasons, including

1. The police thought the girls (in many cases) were just trouble makers
2. Social services wanted to believe that the girls were in consensual relationships (despite the age differences and the illegalities involved)
3. It was career suicide to suggest that there was a problem with people from particular communities
4. When it became clear that something was going seriously wrong there was an overwhelming culture of cover up
5. The failure to act by police and social services created a sense of impunity amongst the abusers
6. Victims were too terrified to speak out and social services did little to enable them to do so
7. Community cohesion was deemed to be too important to risk any meaningful investigation
8. The social care system (from which many of the victims were drawn) failed completely to adequately control the young people it was responsible for at the most basic levels - children were openly collected by their abusers from the doors of the care homes

Sadly I do think that a PC culture played a significant role - but does not explain everything

[andymadmak]

CaptainSlow said:

I wonder if the condescending libtards are still laughing at the inarticulate chap that warned of muslim rape gangs making out he said "ray guns".

I remember challenging the then resident PH 'libtards' on this very matter several years ago. The abuse I got at the time was incredible. Threatening phone calls too.

I suppose it's easier to poke fun at inarticulate BNP scum (cos at the end of the day, BNP is still scum) than it is to actually address the occasionally valid points that one of them might make - especially if those points challenge your cosy world-view.
The over weening desire to be seen as on-message and PC by many commentators particularly in the Media, the Police and Social Services condemned these girls to be victims for years.
Some people should be hanging their heads in shame right now. I very much doubt that many are.

[andymadmak]

desolate said:

I just can't buy the police allowing this to slide for about 15 years for reasons of 'PC'

They knew a about it and did fk all. Just like they have done in all the other cases of sexual abuse

The only conclusion I can can to is that key people are compromised - either because they are plums deep themselves or because of links via corruption.

Those may be factors in some/many cases, but not all. I certainly know from contacts that I have in both Police and Social Services that it was generally believed that to raise the issue of the abuse of young girls by groups of Pakistani males was effectively to commit career suicide.

It was absolutely known that it was going on, and some brave souls did speak out. You only have to see what happened on here when the subject was raised. Obfuscation led rapidly to accusations of racism and bigotry.

[andymadmak]

desolate said:

It's the same MO as all the other abuse scandals.

What was the reason for the other cover ups?

Common denominator is a rotten police force not political correctness.

With the greatest respect, you are being a bit naive. Yes, in many cases cover ups stem from corruption and even involvement. But first hand accounts from officers and social workers confirm that in too many cases the cover ups were due to people not wanting to rock the boat for fear of the career implications that follow accusations of racism, bigotry etc.

It may not be something you want to accept. Wouldn't we all want to imagine we would be brave enough to face down our accusers under those circumstances and do the right thing by the victims? Sadly, too many could not be that brave.
Some police officers even thought that the girls were just attention seeking slags, who did not warrant the trouble they would bring on the investigating officer.
The toxicity of the allegations and the vitriolic reactions that those who spoke out could expect to face meant that these were crimes that left unchallenged. There is a wealth of evidence out there. Please do not take my word for it. Go read. You will be appalled, stunned, saddened, angered and bewildered by what has taken place.

[andymadmak]

Countdown said:

So what do you think about those paedophile gangs which are either predominantly or wholly white in origin? I think there have been several cases reported on this thread but there are also the more well know ones (RC priests? Scoutmasters? TV/Radio celebs?) Do you also believe that these were facilitated by their respective communities?

Gangs of whatever colour are equally abhorrent.
The dynamic surrounding the wide scale abuse by RC priests has been discussed on PH several times. My own theory is that Catholic priests have traditionally held such a position of power in their communities as to make them almost beyond criticism or suspicion. That, coupled with the 'I'll tell God to send you to hell if you talk about this to anyone, and besides no one will believe you over me anyway' tactics that some victims have reported they were subjected to created a situation where they could get away with what they were doing for a long time.
The hierarchy (or at least a significant part of it) of the RC church must have been aware of what was going on imho, and their failure to act makes the organisation complicit in what was going on in my view.
The dynamic of the grooming gangs is somewhat different, but no less evil.

[andymadmak]

Countdown said:

And don’t forget that the “Community” must have known all about it and therefore been “complicit”. That’s the “real reason why people get so upset about these gangs....”

For the umpteenth time I would quite happily see these abusers gang-raped with an oversize corkscrew. What they did was extremely vile. But what’s pretty pathetic is the continuous need for some posters to keep suggesting that this was somehow supported by the “Community” or that it was somehow connected to religion. That is balls. I’m not sure how many different ways it can be shown to be balls, but trust me, it IS. That’s why there have been numerous links to show that abusers come in all shapes sizes and colours.

[b] How about we forget the colour, [b] concentrate on the abuse, and think about how it can be stopped from happening?

Because I think you're deliberately ignoring a key point?

The key point being the dynamics that underpin these groups.
In the case of the RC church it's the ability of some to use their position of absolute trust within their community to protect them from allegations.
In the case of these on line rings it's the ability to use technology and web anonymity to find like minded people
In the case of the Asian gangs the ability to go about what they were doing literally in plain sight, without needing the protection of status (priest) or technology (dark web) and without fear of sanction from those around them suggests very strongly that there is a cultural and/or religious element to that dynamic.

Now, I know you don't necessarily agree with that, and you have every right to your view. What we can agree on is that anyone and everyone involved in the sexual abuse of kids is deserving of a special place in hell, the sooner the better!

[andymadmak]

graylag said:

The first page of the thread makes it clear that it’s about colour and trying to smear anyone of one particular religion.

No, I was the OP on this thread and it was most certainly not supposed to be about colour or religion, but actually was about trying to understand the mentality of perpetrators of crimes like this.. In fact, when some people mentioned colour I immediately posted this:

andymadmak on this thread in 2012 said:

I was trying to avoid any reference to ethnicity, back ground or religious beliefs. I don't know the make up of the 8 accused.
You read about individual abusers of all types and colours. I suppose I look upon those people as loners acting out their sick fantasies. What I don't get at all is the idea of a gang, a group, getting together in this way. Does none of them ever say "hang on a moment guys, we shouldn't be doing this to a 12 year old kid" ?

Gangs or groups was what I was trying to understand specifically (ie, the bit in bold) .

[andymadmak]

TTwiggy said:

And you continue to miss/ignore the point. Yes, lots of things went badly wrong here to allow this to happen. So saying 'they do it 'cos of Allah' is spectacularly ridiculous. But every few pages, someone says effectively that. But when someone tries to point this out, and provide examples where doing similar would be similarly ridiculous, all you get is shouts of 'whataboutism'.

All monsters have mechanisms and constructs that enable them. For Catholic priests it was their position within the community combined with unrestricted access to kids plus celibacy rules plus a whole raft of other details. It's a cake mix that produces what we have seen.

For these gangs the mechanisms are different. To deny that Islam is not an ingredient in that cake mix would be wholly wrong imho. We can debate the amount and it most certainly is not all 'cos of Allah'. But to deny any presence would be wrong.

[andymadmak]

Countdown said:

I've asked this before - snipped for brevity

And we both know that this has been debated an awful lot on here over the years. Answers have been given. Some agree, some disagree. It really isn't worth going around this particular Wrekin again.
I will restate though, that the 'cos Allah' simplistic arguments are as wrong as the 'nowt to do with Islam' positions. It's a complex religious, cultural and educational mix, baked in an oven of tragic circumstances, fear and cowardice.

The rampant whataboutism that has characterised every iteration of this debate is as sad and disappointing as the stories from the victims themselves.

I've said many times that understanding how this kind of thing comes about in the various different forms that it happens (gangs, lone wolfs, sex tourists, priests, scout masters etc) is part of the key to ensuring that it doesn't happen again. Each grouping has it's own modus operandi and enabling factors. One size does not fit all.

Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 30th January 19:21

[andymadmak]

_dobbo_ said:

Decades of cuts to the criminal justice system, the NHS, the social care system, and the police, and here we are.

And yet these abuses were also going on during the Blair/Brown years, when the public purse was forever open for all those services you mention.

It's deeply distressing that you're trying to excuse the behaviour of these monsters by trying to make some sort of link to public sector finances, presumably for party political reasons? Shameful. The simple fact is that the Police, Social Services and others frequently turned a blind eye to these goings on, in the interests of 'community cohesion'. Try Googling a bit on the subject and you'll find interview after interview confirming this.