7 yr old and forced Radiotherapy

[Derek Smith]

TheSnitch said:

Derek, I have gone back several pages - I can't see any link to what you describe

Could you please post it again? Thanks

Sorry. It wasn't a link.

Nigel said, rather fascinatingly:

I work in the data collection side of clinical trials so see the side effects of news drugs and placebos every day and some weird stuff does come out, the placebo effect is a very strange thing indeed!

I've heard of someone getting seriously ill by taking an overdose of placebo - they were on a clinical trial where they didn't know if they were taking active or placebo, took an overdose to take their own life, got rushed to hospital with really low blood pressure, etc. 5 mins after they found out they were on placebo the blood pressure was back up to normal and they were fine!

[TheSnitch]

Derek Smith said:

TheSnitch said:

Derek, I have gone back several pages - I can't see any link to what you describe

Could you please post it again? Thanks

Sorry. It wasn't a link.

Nigel said, rather fascinatingly:

I work in the data collection side of clinical trials so see the side effects of news drugs and placebos every day and some weird stuff does come out, the placebo effect is a very strange thing indeed!

I've heard of someone getting seriously ill by taking an overdose of placebo - they were on a clinical trial where they didn't know if they were taking active or placebo, took an overdose to take their own life, got rushed to hospital with really low blood pressure, etc. 5 mins after they found out they were on placebo the blood pressure was back up to normal and they were fine!

Without wishing to doubt you or Nigel in any way, I have to say the story sounds like absolute bks.

[otolith]

This is interesting:

http://youtu.be/O1Q3jZw4FGs

[TheSnitch]

otolith said:

This is interesting:

http://youtu.be/O1Q3jZw4FGs

That was very interesting.

And this comment made me laugh out loud

Unus Domus said:

You see the difference? The Placebo Effect describes an observed effect. Its like saying that trees have leaves without knowing why. Homeopathy is like saying trees have leaves to tickle each other when bored.

[mph1977]

Bill said:

Derek Smith said:

A/ I am not saying, nor suggesting, that there is no such thing as the placebo effect. It must exist because it has a name. There is some doubt about the effects of placebos.

B/ Everyone else? There has been limited study of the effects of placebos. If 'everyone' beleives in one particular suggestion about them then I would suggest it is quite likely to be wrong. For instance, we all 'knew' that endorphins caused the placebo effect with regards pain.

By "effects of placebo" do you mean how the placebo effect works i.e. the mechanisms?

part of the problem with any 'trial' is by in it's self the fact that 'you are in a trial' - a previous poster posted an example using car components -what makes the benefit the component or the simple act of cleaning the system ,removing and refitting the component and putting it all back in order ...

A lot of the 'used to be alternative ' health treatments and most of those still considered alternative have some kind of 'holistic assessment' by the practitioner and some degree of bespoke treatment vs the perception that conventional practitioners are rushing you through on a production line prescribing standard therapies - is the effect there from the process or from the treatment ? or is it a case that the 'holistic assessment' stuff is treating the somatic component ?

[Derek Smith]

Bill said:

By "effects of placebo" do you mean how the placebo effect works i.e. the mechanisms?

More or less: Yes.

My concern is that whilst we do not know why they do what they occasionally do, and sometimes don't, we are happy to 'use' them.

A caveman found traces of gunpowder and discovered that if you sprinkled some on dry tinder it was easier to light. Whilst he didn't know why, he was happy to use it. So when he found a concentration of it a fair distance away from his cave he collected it, put it in an empty tin of Roses chocolates. He decided to keep it near the fire.

[TheSnitch]

Derek Smith said:

Bill said:

By "effects of placebo" do you mean how the placebo effect works i.e. the mechanisms?

More or less: Yes.

My concern is that whilst we do not know why they do what they occasionally do, and sometimes don't, we are happy to 'use' them.

A caveman found traces of gunpowder and discovered that if you sprinkled some on dry tinder it was easier to light. Whilst he didn't know why, he was happy to use it. So when he found a concentration of it a fair distance away from his cave he collected it, put it in an empty tin of Roses chocolates. He decided to keep it near the fire.

When you say ''happy to use them'' do you mean in clinical trials, Derek? If so, I think the reason why we conduct placebo-controlled trials has already been covered.

If you are talking about someone prescribing a placebo, then this does not happen within the UK, although it does in other countries. Prescribing placebos raises all kinds of ethical issues. It also raises a significant practical one - would the patient experience any improvement in their condition if they were aware that what they were taking was just a placebo?

Incidentally, there are a number of drugs used very successfully and for many years without us having a full understanding of how they work.

[rohrl]

Derek Smith said:

A caveman found traces of gunpowder and discovered that if you sprinkled some on dry tinder it was easier to light. Whilst he didn't know why, he was happy to use it. So when he found a concentration of it a fair distance away from his cave he collected it, put it in an empty tin of Roses chocolates. He decided to keep it near the fire.

That doesn't sound very safe. What happened next Uncle Derek?

[Oakey]

He had an exciting indoor firework display?

[BlackVanDyke]

tvrolet said:

Trax said:

The child's parent argues that other alternative treatments can work...

I think the problem is that if it's an alternative to a treatment, then it's not actually a treatment.

/thread.

"What do you call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine."

We'll have people clamouring for the right of Breatharians not to feed their children next...

[JDRoest]

Trax said:

Not sure where I stand with this, and both arguments have some weight.

The child's parent argues that other alternative treatments can work, and that Radiotherapy will cause long term serious harm to the child. Why is this case different to a religious argument that no treatment should be given?

The whackjob's argument holds no weight whatsoever. She's practically using Google to figure out a cure for cancer, vs the tens of millions of hours of research into various cancer treatments that can be used to save her child.

Her stance isn't even rational, her child has a death clock over his bed; he simply does not have the time for a cure to be researched, and certainly doesn't have the time to try anything other than going straight for the cure.

The mother needs to be sectioned.

[Derek Smith]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/9771839...

it is easy enough to refute of course, but what is the Telegraph think of, giving this woman and her silly ideas column inches.

[Derek Smith]

custodian said:

Well if you read the article, it says that eating healthily after chemo and radiotherapy helped her recovery. Can't really argue with that.

There's the problem: if you read the article. The problem is with references. In weeks, months and years to come it will be quoted as this marchioness proving her fad works.

Further, there is no proof that eating according to a fad - not necessarily healthily - helped her. Equally, on the assumption she wasn't eating Aldi ready meals before she contracted cancer, one could suggest that it caused her disease.

What she means, of course, is that she either likes eating such food or that she likes posing about it.

[CommanderJameson]

custodian said:

Eating healthily during and after conventional cancer treatment has to be a good thing.

If future comments assume that the radio and chemo played no part, then the Telegraph can't really be blamed for those people's inability to read.

The whole tone of the article is:

LOOK AT MY MASSIVE HEALTHY DIET AND HOW I BEAT CANCER WITH IT

There was also quite a lot of medicine and science involved

[Los Endos]

Bottom line -
On the BBC Breakfast News they had one of the World's leading paediatric brain surgeons from Alder Hey and he said 2 things as far as I recall :-
He would always support and recommend Parents get a second opinion, as its a very scary thing to happen to a Parent
After surgery ( with this type of tumour ) you need radiotherapy

What I don't recall him saying is eat Organic Runner Beans and everything will be fine !

[otolith]

custodian said:

Well if you read the article, it says that eating healthily after chemo and radiotherapy helped her recovery. Can't really argue with that.

She is not recommending a healthy diet, she is recommending a pseudoscientific fad diet. Normal healthy eating, of the sort any health professional can advise you on, would achieve exactly the same thing.

She's right about one thing, though, her beliefs are religious.

[Los Endos]

custodian said:

Los Endos said:

Bottom line -
On the BBC Breakfast News they had one of the World's leading paediatric brain surgeons from Alder Hey and he said 2 things as far as I recall :-
He would always support and recommend Parents get a second opinion, as its a very scary thing to happen to a Parent
After surgery ( with this type of tumour ) you need radiotherapy

What I don't recall him saying is eat Organic Runner Beans and everything will be fine !

He didn't say that you should take every precaution to avoid sources of infection whilst your immune system is suppressed as a result of chemotherapy either. What's your point?

Having gone through chemo and radiotherapy myself, I can confirm that both Mass General in Boston and the Velindre Cardiff recommended a healthy diet as important in the post treatment stage

I think my point refers to the OP that the Mother was suggesting some hippy dippy solution that is not recognised by any Clinician, including no surgery and radiotherapy.
I used Organic Runner Beans as comedic reference point to her position that threatened the life of her son.

But I thought the point was obvious but clearly not, I was not suggesting a healthy diet wasn't an integral part of anyone's recovery.

[Derek Smith]

custodian said:

Well a fad diet without necessary chem or radiotherapy should produce a slow painful death. I suppose it could be viewed as improving the gene pool by killing off the nuts

I see you are a 'glass half full' type of bloke.

[Oakey]

Derek Smith said:

I see you are a 'glass half full' type of bloke.

depends on the status of the glass beforehand.

[DonkeyApple]

Oakey said:

depends on the status of the glass beforehand.

Exactly. If your pint is not under a tap and is half full it just means that your mate is pissing in it when you're not looking.