No limit on Indian immigration

[Munter]

Guybrush said:

There are simply too many very well qualified people chasing too few jobs in this country already. We don't need any more. All it will do is put up the benefits bill.

Ok so if there are no jobs for them after their studies finish (and we have thanked them for their cash), and they leave due to not finding work. How does that affect the number of people chasing the jobs available?

If they do get a job after passing all the interviews etc, and a UK citizen doesn't. Well it'd be a good opportunity for the UK citizen to take a long hard look at how hard they could have worked to get the job.

Also there are lots of vacancies for high qualified people. Just not in psychology, sociology, or the history of star treck. People need to be choosing the right degree if they want a job at the end.

Anyway. If there are no jobs, they will leave with their qualification they paid us for. So I'm not sure how that pushes up the benefits bill.

[Fantic SuperT]

Munter said:

If there are no jobs, they will leave with their qualification they paid us for.

Or, as happened in IT, they will work for a fraction of the local going rate for a job and tolerate a poor living standard because it's preferable to returning to their Third World country.

I've just come from a meeting where all (not some or most) of the computer programmers were Indian. They aren't very good but they aren't paid much either. When we try to recruit staff the preferred-supplier agencies only send CVs for Indians and Africans because they can earn a bigger margin on the fixed rate for each defined role. I haven't seen a CV for a white British person in two years and I'm not likely to ever again. The Systems Analyst was a Nigerian with a council house he obtained after living here with his sister for two years. Very good European workers I've known from previous jobs (and would definitely hire again given the chance) submit their CVs to the agencies but never get forwarded from the agencies for us to hire them, without discussion on rates of pay even beginning.

The same thing happened in Textiles (and areas like Bradford) in the 1970's. You might not think it's such a good idea if they come for your job.

[Munter]

Fantic SuperT said:

Or, as happened in IT, they will work for a fraction of the local going rate for a job and tolerate a poor living standard because it's preferable to returning to their Third World country.

I've just come from a meeting where all (not some or most) of the computer programmers were Indian. They aren't very good but they aren't paid much either. When we try to recruit staff the preferred-supplier agencies only send CVs for Indians and Africans because they can earn a bigger margin on the fixed rate for each defined role. I haven't seen a CV for a white British person in two years and I'm not likely to ever again. The Systems Analyst was a Nigerian with a council house he obtained after living here with his sister for two years. Very good European workers I've known from previous jobs (and would definitely hire again given the chance) submit their CVs to the agencies but never get forwarded from the agencies for us to hire them, without discussion on rates of pay even beginning.

The same thing happened in Textiles (and areas like Bradford) in the 1970's. You might not think it's such a good idea if they come for your job.

Doesn't that just mean locals set their standards too high? Either the employer rejects them because their work is poor, or keep them on because it's good enough and cheap. If people want to compete they could work for the lower rate and accept the same standards.

Otherwise next you'll be saying everybody deserves a job.

[anonymous-user]

On what basis does someone who, actually or metaphorically, got off the boat a bit before someone else have some sort of inherent prior claim to a job if a job is available? There is no one now living in the UK whose ancestors did not get off a boat at some time. OK, if you can find that one bloke who never took a boat, but came here (from Africa) on the land bridge when it was still up, shake his hand, and ask him WTF with all those stone circles and stuff, but his claim to a job is no better than anyone else's, assuming all are equally willing to pay taxes and not do crimes.

[simoid]

Fantic SuperT said:

Or, as happened in IT, they will work for a fraction of the local going rate for a job and tolerate a poor living standard because it's preferable to returning to their Third World country.

I've just come from a meeting where all (not some or most) of the computer programmers were Indian. They aren't very good but they aren't paid much either. When we try to recruit staff the preferred-supplier agencies only send CVs for Indians and Africans because they can earn a bigger margin on the fixed rate for each defined role. I haven't seen a CV for a white British person in two years and I'm not likely to ever again. The Systems Analyst was a Nigerian with a council house he obtained after living here with his sister for two years. Very good European workers I've known from previous jobs (and would definitely hire again given the chance) submit their CVs to the agencies but never get forwarded from the agencies for us to hire them, without discussion on rates of pay even beginning.

The same thing happened in Textiles (and areas like Bradford) in the 1970's. You might not think it's such a good idea if they come for your job.

Why doesn't your company just hire the European people if they're better candidates?

It's not the Indians' and Africans' fault or problem that you use an agency who apparently isn't doing their job properly.

It's your company's.

Don't hire someone if they're "not very good".

[Fantic SuperT]

Breadvan72 said:

On what basis does someone who, actually or metaphorically, got off the boat a bit before someone else have some sort of inherent prior claim to a job if a job is available? There is no one now living in the UK whose ancestors did not get off a boat at some time. OK, if you can find that one bloke who never took a boat, but came here (from Africa) on the land bridge when it was still up, shake his hand, and ask him WTF with all those stone circles and stuff, but his claim to a job is no better than anyone else's, assuming all are equally willing to pay taxes and not do crimes.

It's OK for you to believe Britain should have no border controls on immigration, but my original question was how such values can be reconciled with the manifesto of the Conservative party to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands when they are shared by the Prime Minister (so far as Indian student immigration goes). I believe the reason the Conservatives still have that policy on their website is because large numbers of voters hold a view which opposes yours.

As for my company fixing deals with suppliers who only provide Third World staff, that is beyond my control and for every one that gets sacked another one arrives. It is not possible to hire a European if we never see a CV from one. Perhaps Bulgarians will compete with Indians on rates of pay, but that's not much consolation for the people born here and who's ancestors fought to preserve a certain way of life that included waiting your turn in queues and not sodcasting music on trains.

[elster]

sugerbear said:

Why would an indian student want to study in the UK. They can easily get a much cheaper education from one of the many *cough* universities *cough* in India, then they can join any IT organisation they like and come on over on a visa.

Job done.

Prestige.

Most of them will never have a proper job in their lives.

You think your average IT worker is going to be able to have parents that will pay £25k a year for them to go to Uni in the UK?

Most of the students from overseas in York are the ones that have a shed load of money from their parents and have nice new cars. This isn't just India, but China, Singapore, Philippines.

[DJRC]

Fantic SuperT said:

Munter said:

If there are no jobs, they will leave with their qualification they paid us for.

Or, as happened in IT, they will work for a fraction of the local going rate for a job and tolerate a poor living standard because it's preferable to returning to their Third World country.

I've just come from a meeting where all (not some or most) of the computer programmers were Indian. They aren't very good but they aren't paid much either. When we try to recruit staff the preferred-supplier agencies only send CVs for Indians and Africans because they can earn a bigger margin on the fixed rate for each defined role. I haven't seen a CV for a white British person in two years and I'm not likely to ever again. The Systems Analyst was a Nigerian with a council house he obtained after living here with his sister for two years. Very good European workers I've known from previous jobs (and would definitely hire again given the chance) submit their CVs to the agencies but never get forwarded from the agencies for us to hire them, without discussion on rates of pay even beginning.

The same thing happened in Textiles (and areas like Bradford) in the 1970's. You might not think it's such a good idea if they come for your job.

Are you taking the piss sunshine? You are in Berkshire and in 2 yrs you have not seen a single non-white comp sci or IT tech apply for a job with you? Incidentally how can you tell from a CV if they are white or black?

And driving rates lower? Its about £30 an hr for a contractor give or take £10. Knocking on £40 for a senior experienced chap. Astrium's standard rate is £37 an hr recruited via Scom.

Sir, I declare you a moron.

[Fantic SuperT]

DJRC said:

Are you taking the piss sunshine? You are in Berkshire and in 2 yrs you have not seen a single non-white comp sci or IT tech apply for a job with you? Incidentally how can you tell from a CV if they are white or black?

And driving rates lower? Its about £30 an hr for a contractor give or take £10. Knocking on £40 for a senior experienced chap. Astrium's standard rate is £37 an hr recruited via Scom.

Sir, I declare you a moron.

A: I don't work in Berkshire.
B: I've yet to meet a white man called Adyinka, Deepak, Bhalaji or Fukka
C: Those rates were normal in the 1990s. Have you heard of inflation?
D: You're apparently entitled to call me 19th century names from the safety of your keyboard but be careful experimenting with that when if you ever speak to people face to face.

[thehawk]

DJRC said:

Are you taking the piss sunshine? You are in Berkshire and in 2 yrs you have not seen a single non-white comp sci or IT tech apply for a job with you? Incidentally how can you tell from a CV if they are white or black?

I work for one of the worlds largest IT outsourcing companies - I haven't seen a European or local CV for over a year. Why? Because it is now company policy to only fill the positions from India. Local resources are too expensive. I've been through literally dozens of interviews and resumes and 100% of them are fking useless or liars BUT at probably 1/10 the cost it doesn't matter to the financial guys in the US who run the business on a quarter by quarter basis.

[anonymous-user]

That indicates the effect of a global economy, and has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. Short of establishing artificial tariffs and wage controls, we just have to let the economy adjust. In a few decades, with any luck, there will have been a levelling of pay rates across the developed and emerging economies.


Look also at Hans Rosling's thought provoking stuff. This is well worth ten minutes of anyone's time, but if you are short of ten minutes, start watching seven minutes in:-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTznEIZRkLg

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 22 February 09:12

[greygoose]

Breadvan72 said:

That indicates the effect of a global economy, and has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. Short of establishing artificial tariffs and wage controls, we just have to let the economy adjust. In a few decades, with any luck, there will have been a levelling of pay rates across the developed and emerging economies.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Friday 22 February 09:12

I'm not sure pay rates will ever level out fully as there always seems to be a new region that develops as a source of low wage labour. I do wonder if the increased mechanisation of factories and farming will lead to a huge pool of unemployed "working classes" across the world as there must be a limit to the number of care home assistants, au pairs etc the world needs (or maybe not)?

[thehawk]

Breadvan72 said:

That indicates the effect of a global economy, and has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. Short of establishing artificial tariffs and wage controls, we just have to let the economy adjust. In a few decades, with any luck, there will have been a levelling of pay rates across the developed and emerging economies.

Yeah, that doesn't sound good at all really, I 'm quite happy enjoying a high wage whilst exploiting low wage countries. Your visions sounds a bit too socialist for my liking and goes completely against the human psyche.

[anonymous-user]

greygoose said:

Breadvan72 said:

That indicates the effect of a global economy, and has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. Short of establishing artificial tariffs and wage controls, we just have to let the economy adjust. In a few decades, with any luck, there will have been a levelling of pay rates across the developed and emerging economies.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 22 February 09:12

I'm not sure pay rates will ever level out fully as there always seems to be a new region that develops as a source of low wage labour. I do wonder if the increased mechanisation of factories and farming will lead to a huge pool of unemployed "working classes" across the world as there must be a limit to the number of care home assistants, au pairs etc the world needs (or maybe not)?

I too doubt that we will see pay parity across the entire planet, but, once India and China and Brazil etc are at the same level as we are, then the next step will be to bring Africa and other parts of South America along.

I don't think that my vision is Socialist (although I am still, just about, a tiny bit of a Socialist, sort of, but not a complete egalitarian - I accept that some will do better than others). I am talking about how developed Capitalist market economies may work. There will always be some exploitation and unfairness, but if we can reduce those things as much as possible, that will be good for business and Capitalism, as then we will have less conflict and tension, and can all concentrate on being richer, healthier, and happier. Humans are basically co operative, and progress through co operation (this can include the form of co operation known as business competition), but sometimes we need to be reminded to co operate a bit harder.

[DJRC]

Fantic SuperT said:

A: I don't work in Berkshire.
B: I've yet to meet a white man called Adyinka, Deepak, Bhalaji or Fukka
C: Those rates were normal in the 1990s. Have you heard of inflation?
D: You're apparently entitled to call me 19th century names from the safety of your keyboard but be careful experimenting with that when if you ever speak to people face to face.

Those rates were as of 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. They havent changed. I know the rates very well. I can also tell you the permie rates. I can do the same for large parts of Europe aswell if you wish.

Sir...you are still a moron. I can throw in a cpl of Swiss insults if it will make you feel better?

[Fantic SuperT]

DJRC said:

Those rates were as of 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. They havent changed. I know the rates very well. I can also tell you the permie rates. I can do the same for large parts of Europe aswell if you wish.

Sir...you are still a moron. I can throw in a cpl of Swiss insults if it will make you feel better?

So you accept Indians have driven rates back to 1990's levels, thanks. Blöde Fotze.

[simoid]

Fantic SuperT said:

So you accept Indians have driven rates back to 1990's levels, thanks. Blöde Fotze.

Definitely Indians.

Definitely not a recession.

[Ozzie Osmond]

DJRC said:

I can throw in a cpl of Swiss insults if it will make you feel better?

A dodgy box of chocolates and a cuckoo clock...

But do inform us; what proportion of your local population hails from the Indian sub-continent?

[Shay HTFC]

Fantic SuperT said:

DJRC said:

Those rates were as of 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. They havent changed. I know the rates very well. I can also tell you the permie rates. I can do the same for large parts of Europe aswell if you wish.

Sir...you are still a moron. I can throw in a cpl of Swiss insults if it will make you feel better?

So you accept Indians have driven rates back to 1990's levels, thanks. Blöde Fotze.

I would love to know if you were pro-immigration back when immigrants weren't competing your job, but were instead making your building work and car washes cheaper (at the expense of the local unskilled labour).

Face the facts - your job is now at competition from the next level up of immigrants. Get prepared to work harder for less. Unskilled labourers have been dealing with it for the past 20 years and heard nothing but shouts of them being racist sloths.

With the Chinese students, the only problem I can see is that we train up all these international students for quick money, only for them to go home and then beat us at our own game.
Its like taking on an apprentice, only for him to leave your company and set up his own competition which ultimately screws you over.

[Mermaid]

Shay HTFC said:

With the Chinese students, the only problem I can see is that we train up all these international students for quick money, only for them to go home and then beat us at our own game.
Its like taking on an apprentice, only for him to leave your company and set up his own competition which ultimately screws you over.

Slavery was a lot better and profitable