Norwegian prison system

[grumbledoak]

Devil2575 said:

Why comment at all when you admit that you haven't even read the artical?

I wasn't aware that I was answerable to you for my comments? Oh, wait, I'm not.


So, having read two articles, it seems Norwegians are not very predisposed to committing serious crimes and as a result Norway largely has a small and happy prison population serving short terms before being released. Good for them.

So what?

[croyde]

Those look like better conditions and accommodation then us workers get at the Isle of White Festival each year 3 of us in a pokey un-heated shed with the use of a toilet block about 200 yards away and non-working showers.

[dav123a]

grumbledoak said:

Devil2575 said:

Why comment at all when you admit that you haven't even read the artical?

I wasn't aware that I was answerable to you for my comments? Oh, wait, I'm not.


So, having read two articles, it seems Norwegians are not very predisposed to committing serious crimes and as a result Norway largely has a small and happy prison population serving short terms before being released. Good for them.

So what?

I think the point is that Norway has a system that works for them and we need one that works better than the current one if that means copying Norway or Nigeria we should find a system better suited to society.

[grumbledoak]

dav123a said:

I think the point is that Norway has a system that works for them and we need one that works better than the current one if that means copying Norway or Nigeria we should find a system better suited to society.

Agreed. As Derek says, our current system seems to fail just about everyone.

But that doesn't mean we can draw any conclusions from Norway. The article even points out their proportion of foreign prisoners and worries that foreign organised crime may target them in future because of their easy going prison conditions.

[Caulkhead]

BlackVanDyke said:

Caulkhead said:

I expect the taxpayers of Norway really relish the comfort criminals live in tax free when they hand over 60% of their hard-earned to the government.

Except that upon completing their sentences, said criminals are vastly more likely to become contributing members of society and help pay their own bills than are any of ours in the UK.

Not necessarily, a small prison population and low re-conviction rate is just as likely to result from a poor quality police and court system as it is from an effective imprisonment policy. The article makes no attempt to determine which it is in this case.

[Caulkhead]

croyde said:

Those look like better conditions and accommodation then us workers get at the Isle of White Festival each year 3 of us in a pokey un-heated shed with the use of a toilet block about 200 yards away and non-working showers.

Try the Isle of Wight next year - I own some land adjoining the Bestival site and we look after people much better than on the Isle of White wherever that is. I'm easy to spot, I'm the one patrolling the borders of my land and taking potshots at any who looks a bit hippy.

[JDRoest]

Derek Smith said:

My theory is that we should find some other way to punish offenders other than incarceration. Prison should be retained for those who are a danger to the public or those who have shown themselves repeatedly to have no concern for society. My belief is that most prisoners should be released whilst a considerable number, those for whom criminality is a way of life those who have shown themselves to have no regard for the rights of others, should get considerably longer sentences.

So...you can murder someone, but as long as you show it was just a one off, it's okay because you're no longer a threat to anyone else?

The problem isn't that we jail too many, it's that we don't jail enough for longer terms. The whole point of a deterrent is exactly that. If a thief can get caught 180 times (as recently) and only then get jailed - where was the deterrent? It's simply doesn't exist.

And comparing Norway to the UK is just brain dead.

[Randy Winkman]

Caulkhead said:

Not necessarily, a small prison population and low re-conviction rate is just as likely to result from a poor quality police and court system as it is from an effective imprisonment policy. The article makes no attempt to determine which it is in this case.

I've been to Norway, the criminals are running amok.

[hairykrishna]

JDRoest said:

The problem isn't that we jail too many, it's that we don't jail enough for longer terms. The whole point of a deterrent is exactly that.

There's little evidence that harsh, long, prison sentences work either as a deterrent or discourage people from re-offending.

[Olivera]

hairykrishna said:

JDRoest said:

The problem isn't that we jail too many, it's that we don't jail enough for longer terms. The whole point of a deterrent is exactly that.

There's little evidence that harsh, long, prison sentences work either as a deterrent or discourage people from re-offending.

There certainly is evidence of that in the US, where crime peaked in the early 90s and has dropped considerably through a combination of increased policing and harsher sentences. New York crime rates since 1990 is a prime example of this.

Note: of course gun crime in the US is still extremely high, albeit with marked differences between demographics.

[Derek Smith]

JDRoest said:

Derek Smith said:

My theory is that we should find some other way to punish offenders other than incarceration. Prison should be retained for those who are a danger to the public or those who have shown themselves repeatedly to have no concern for society. My belief is that most prisoners should be released whilst a considerable number, those for whom criminality is a way of life those who have shown themselves to have no regard for the rights of others, should get considerably longer sentences.

So...you can murder someone, but as long as you show it was just a one off, it's okay because you're no longer a threat to anyone else?

The problem isn't that we jail too many, it's that we don't jail enough for longer terms. The whole point of a deterrent is exactly that. If a thief can get caught 180 times (as recently) and only then get jailed - where was the deterrent? It's simply doesn't exist.

And comparing Norway to the UK is just brain dead.

Not what I said. I'm willing to support my contention - isn't that the point of these forums - but it has to be a sensible challenge.

[Derek Smith]

Olivera said:

There certainly is evidence of that in the US, where crime peaked in the early 90s and has dropped considerably through a combination of increased policing and harsher sentences. New York crime rates since 1990 is a prime example of this.

Not what the person involved reckoned happened:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/25/bill-brat...

This man is a career politician, not a police officer as such.

Further, he obtained the reduction in crime after getting an increase in establishment of some 15%, more if you work out how many officers were on the street. There was a figure at the time which was bandied about of a 50% increase in street officers. At that time many support roles were performed by officers, something that was no longer true in my force which means there will be little slack that he can put onto the streets.

So whilst there might well be something we can learn from the Norwegian methods of policing, it is probable that it is not directly transferable to this country. And whilst there might well be something we can learn from the NYPD . . .

Further, the way the force is organised in the NYPD, paperwork is probably around 20% of what it is in this country for a crime.

A division in Sussex established a 'zero-tolerance' policy where officers were not to let any offence go. PCs ended up in the nick for vast lengths of time dealing with petty crime. From the public's point of view the operation was quite successful, from the HMIC's view, given the increase in recorded crime and the lower detection rates, it was a non-starter. And it is the HMIC's view that counts.

[dandarez]

Shay HTFC said:

Treat prisoners like animals and it will only serve to make them act like animals.

You could be correct.
Let's face it, animals do usually return to their den.

Is that why prison to many of them is really 'home', and why many don't seem to give a st about being sent back (home) either?

[vodkalolly]

dandarez said:

You could be correct.
Let's face it, animals do usually return to their den.

Is that why prison to many of them is really 'home', and why many don't seem to give a st about being sent back (home) either?

There are certainly some people who are better off in prison as they have no ability to look after themselves in the outside world. It would of course be possible to supervise them in a perfect world and give them a better life than prison offers. I suspect though we will not be allocating the funds anytime soon.

[Art0ir]

I think a lot of people let emotion and rhetoric get in the way of a sensible discussion about this in the UK, PH certainly being no exception, sadly.

[thehawk]

Art0ir said:

I think a lot of people let emotion and rhetoric get in the way of a sensible discussion about this in the UK, PH certainly being no exception, sadly.

Strange that, us being humans and everything.

My view :

-There are certain heinous crimes that we are not strong enough on, and I believe capital punishment should be reintroduced.
-There may well be some cause to drastically reduce the prison population by getting offenders to do more meaningful reparations/punishments. We should only be locking up violent or prolific offenders that pose an ongoing danger to society, people or property.
-Any foreigner in jail must be subject to deportation, without excuse or regard to their 'human rights' which they should have lost the moment they committed a crime in the UK.

Edited by thehawk on Monday 25th February 22:51

[Art0ir]

thehawk said:

Art0ir said:

I think a lot of people let emotion and rhetoric get in the way of a sensible discussion about this in the UK, PH certainly being no exception, sadly.

Strange that, us being humans and everything.

Some manage it

[thehawk]

Art0ir said:

Some manage it

OK, I fraudulently obtain $5 million from you, then kill you just so you don't come after me. I won't do it again because I now have a large sum of money and can go and live the rest of my life relaxing in a tropical paradise. (of course all of this performed with no emotion, although I think that is what they call a psychopath?)

The reality is if you take emotion out of it there is no reason to jail me. I'm not going to re-offend, I have money now and am leaving the country. Why on earth would you want t waste tax-payers money punishing me.

[Art0ir]

thehawk said:

Art0ir said:

Some manage it

OK, I fraudulently obtain $5 million from you, then kill you just so you don't come after me. I won't do it again because I now have a large sum of money and can go and live the rest of my life relaxing in a tropical paradise. (of course all of this performed with no emotion, although I think that is what they call a psychopath?)

The reality is if you take emotion out of it there is no reason to jail me. I'm not going to re-offend, I have money now and am leaving the country. Why on earth would you want t waste tax-payers money punishing me.

I shouldn't but I will...

If you receive no punishment, then you will go for $10 Million next time.

Straw man of the year goes to...

[thehawk]

Art0ir said:

I shouldn't but I will...

If you receive no punishment, then you will go for $10 Million next time.

Straw man of the year goes to...

Fair enough, but I'd promise the judge I wouldn't do it again and sign a piece of paper promising not to return to the UK for a number of years.