North Korea - how serious should we take them?
Discussion
Cobnapint said:
scherzkeks said:
Cobnapint said:
scherzkeks said:
UN didn't designate NK responsible either.
Pro tip: ask him for proof that NK did it. Watch the fireworks.
We don't need anymore clever dicks like you thinking they've won the argument by asking for proof every five minutesPro tip: ask him for proof that NK did it. Watch the fireworks.
Simple.
Simple.
jmorgan said:
Granted but what did he expect when he is lobbing misses around on a whim. Looking back at the history of the DMZ, there are a lot of games of chicken being played and some serious incursions.
Devil's advocate and leaving aside the fact that KJI appears to be a loon....All nations build and test their own weapons. Why can't he?
Countdown said:
jmorgan said:
Granted but what did he expect when he is lobbing misses around on a whim. Looking back at the history of the DMZ, there are a lot of games of chicken being played and some serious incursions.
Devil's advocate and leaving aside the fact that KJI appears to be a loon....All nations build and test their own weapons. Why can't he?
The Guardian said:
The official KCNA news agency, citing a statement from military chiefs, warned of a “pre-emptive retaliatory strike at the enemy groups” involved in the joint US-South Korean drill.
Pyongyang added it planned to respond to the drills with an “operation to liberate the whole of South Korea including Seoul” with an “ultra-precision blitzkrieg”.
Cobnapint said:
Countdown said:
jmorgan said:
Granted but what did he expect when he is lobbing misses around on a whim. Looking back at the history of the DMZ, there are a lot of games of chicken being played and some serious incursions.
Devil's advocate and leaving aside the fact that KJI appears to be a loon....All nations build and test their own weapons. Why can't he?
The Guardian said:
The official KCNA news agency, citing a statement from military chiefs, warned of a “pre-emptive retaliatory strike at the enemy groups” involved in the joint US-South Korean drill.
Pyongyang added it planned to respond to the drills with an “operation to liberate the whole of South Korea including Seoul” with an “ultra-precision blitzkrieg”.
Countdown said:
jmorgan said:
Granted but what did he expect when he is lobbing misses around on a whim. Looking back at the history of the DMZ, there are a lot of games of chicken being played and some serious incursions.
Devil's advocate and leaving aside the fact that KJI appears to be a loon....All nations build and test their own weapons. Why can't he?
paulrockliffe said:
Not in North Korea it's not though.
Whatever you think of what's going on in North Korea, it's a weak argument to trot out UN resolutions and the like as reasons why they shouldn't do things because the UN etc have no jurisdiction in NK.
Test ICBM's all they want inside borders then.Whatever you think of what's going on in North Korea, it's a weak argument to trot out UN resolutions and the like as reasons why they shouldn't do things because the UN etc have no jurisdiction in NK.
Edit. Or launch them towards China.
Countdown said:
Devil's advocate and leaving aside the fact that KJI appears to be a loon....
All nations build and test their own weapons. Why can't he?
Agreed, whilst I do believe that appeasement as a policy can't work. NK are a propaganda machine and live on the tension created by provocation and reaction. All nations build and test their own weapons. Why can't he?
I am unsure what the US could do differently, there does need to be a response to NK claims and weapon tests that happen outside of their national boundaries.
I do wonder whether the US would be better of saying nothing and leaving it to Japan and South Korea to speak.
Gargamel said:
Countdown said:
Devil's advocate and leaving aside the fact that KJI appears to be a loon....
All nations build and test their own weapons. Why can't he?
Agreed, whilst I do believe that appeasement as a policy can't work. NK are a propaganda machine and live on the tension created by provocation and reaction. All nations build and test their own weapons. Why can't he?
I am unsure what the US could do differently, there does need to be a response to NK claims and weapon tests that happen outside of their national boundaries.
I do wonder whether the US would be better of saying nothing and leaving it to Japan and South Korea to speak.
It won't matter. Once NK has the ICBM's things will calm down, good news for those living in the south.
The nuclear genie is out of the bottle and there is no putting it back. I fully expect most nations to be nuclear armed within the next 100 to 150 years, even the poorest of nations. It's the ultimate deterrent and everybody who feels threatened will want it.
Israel proved this first followed by Pakistan and India and now NK. Iran will want it and get it as will their gulf adversaries but particularly Saudi. Turkey will also want it as will South Korea ultimately I have no doubt.
NK are showing other countries that suspect the US will someday turn its attention to them that they can dissuade military intervention in their country by promising the cost will be tens of thousands of their lives. It won't be simply a matter of the tanks rolling in like it was in Iraq.
You can't keep this tech in the hands of an elite few forever. It was 5 countries for 50 years before Israel broke into the club in the 90's and since then 3 more have joined. It's only heading one way.
Cobnapint said:
hidetheelephants said:
Efbe said:
In addition 1.5m North Koreans died in the Korean war.
About that; that would be the same Korean War that North Korea started and resulted in a massive death toll in the ROK?gadgetmac said:
He would but the US keeps playing war games off the coast of NK. Don't forget, the NK's have been attacked by the US in the past and tens of thousands of them died.
Those would be bilateral exercises with the ROK; when your immediate neighbour is a belligerent martial state with an economy that functions solely to feed its grossly oversized military, has invaded you before resulting in 370k civilian deaths and has punctuated the ceasefire period with kidnapping your citizens,engaging in guerilla warfare, shelling your territory killing military personnel and sinking ships, exercises for defence readiness are a wise precaution even if your own forces are much smaller. NK has never been attacked by the US outside of the Korean war, which NK started.Somebody with a bit of common sense at last. I thought the thread had suffered a joint takeover bid from the Lib Dems, Corbyn and RT for a minute.
Because that's what NK keeps asking for and that's what the US keeps preventing. Both China and Russia know this and recently stated it.
You know why the US doesn't want to listen to NK or work toward a peace deal? Because the war is still current and if it was officially over the US as an occupying force would have to go home and close all their bases.
When in history has the US ever gone home and closed it's bases. It's still there in Japan and Germany, 70 years now.
With those two examples we can see they want to stay in SK, and the legal way to do that is to obstruct peace talks and continue to treat NK as the 'aggressor'.
But as usual there are two sides to the NK story, the tough, macho, ignorant view is to look at but one side, despite that the other side of the story still exists and is well summarised here:
http://russia-insider.com/en/oppa-dictator-style-u...
Globs said:
When in history has the US ever gone home and closed it's bases.
Closed US military basesTaiwan:
Chiayi Air Base
Ching Chuan Kang Air Base
Yangmingshan American Military Housing
Germany:
Bad Aibling Station
Bayern-Kaserne
Benjamin Franklin Village
Coleman Kaserne
Ernst-von-Bergmann-Kaserne
Flak-Kaserne Ludwigsburg
Fürst-Wrede-Kaserne
Ayers Kaserne
Camp Grohn
Camp King
Grenadier Kaserne
Hohenstadt Transmission Tower
Malmsheim Airfield
McGraw Kaserne
Nellingen Kaserne
Pattonville
Ray Barracks, Friedberg, Germany
Taylor Barracks
Wallace Barracks
Iraq:
Camp Al-Saqr
Camp Ashraf
Dreamland (Fallujah, Iraq)
Camp Blue Diamond
Camp Bucca
Camp Cropper
Camp Dublin
MEK Compound
Camp Gannon
Camp Marlboro
Camp Nama
Camp Rustamiyah
Camp Slayer
Camp Speicher
Camp Taji
Camp War Eagle
Forward Operating Base Echo
Forward Operating Base Carpenter
Forward Operating Base Kalsu
Forward Operating Base Paliwoda
Fort Suse
Forward Operating Base Caldwell
Forward Operating Base Callahan
Forward Operating Base Danger
Forward Operating Base Dogwood
Forward Operating Base Iskandariyah
Forward Operating Base Loyalty
Forward Operating Base MacKenzie
Camp Liberty
Forward Operating Base Sykes
Japan:
JGSDF Camp Jinmachi
JGSDF Camp Itazuma
JGSDF Camp Komakado
JGSDF Camp Takigahara
JMSDF Hachinohe Air Base
Kisarazu Air Field
Nakagusuku Bay
Panama:
Coco Solo
Fort Davis, Panama
Galeta Island (Panama)
Phillipines:
U.S. Naval Radio Facility Bagobantay
Cavite Navy Yard
Naval Air Station Cubi Point
Guiuan Airfield
Fort Hughes
Jinamoc Seaplane Base
John Hay Air Station
Mount Santa Rita Naval Link Station
Naval Station Sangley Point
U.S. Naval Radio Station, Tarlac
Spain:
Zaragoza Air Base
Thailand:
Station Lampang
Takhli Royal Thai Air Force Base
U-Tapao Royal Thai Navy Airfield
Udorn Royal Thai Air Force Base
United Kingdom:
Camp Griffiss
Holy Loch
RAF Hythe
There are more, but this gives you an idea.
There is no longer a US presence in Taiwan, Thailand or Spain and has massively ramped back in Germany, the UK and of course the middle east.
Globs said:
Cobnapint said:
hidetheelephants said:
Efbe said:
In addition 1.5m North Koreans died in the Korean war.
About that; that would be the same Korean War that North Korea started and resulted in a massive death toll in the ROK?gadgetmac said:
He would but the US keeps playing war games off the coast of NK. Don't forget, the NK's have been attacked by the US in the past and tens of thousands of them died.
Those would be bilateral exercises with the ROK; when your immediate neighbour is a belligerent martial state with an economy that functions solely to feed its grossly oversized military, has invaded you before resulting in 370k civilian deaths and has punctuated the ceasefire period with kidnapping your citizens,engaging in guerilla warfare, shelling your territory killing military personnel and sinking ships, exercises for defence readiness are a wise precaution even if your own forces are much smaller. NK has never been attacked by the US outside of the Korean war, which NK started.Somebody with a bit of common sense at last. I thought the thread had suffered a joint takeover bid from the Lib Dems, Corbyn and RT for a minute.
Because that's what NK keeps asking for and that's what the US keeps preventing. Both China and Russia know this and recently stated it.
You know why the US doesn't want to listen to NK or work toward a peace deal? Because the war is still current and if it was officially over the US as an occupying force would have to go home and close all their bases.
When in history has the US ever gone home and closed it's bases. It's still there in Japan and Germany, 70 years now.
With those two examples we can see they want to stay in SK, and the legal way to do that is to obstruct peace talks and continue to treat NK as the 'aggressor'.
But as usual there are two sides to the NK story, the tough, macho, ignorant view is to look at but one side, despite that the other side of the story still exists and is well summarised here:
http://russia-insider.com/en/oppa-dictator-style-u...
I think you have just about hit the nail on the head with this one.
People keep on saying there is no alternative, which is completely ridiculous. SO the options...
1) Diplomacy, negotiation and reconciliation should always be the primary goal. It is not even being tried here. Talks have been held before, and were going well until either SK or NK did something retarded. But they were working.
2) The next route is to slowly help NK to build itself from within, building a middle class, a technical basis so the population can learn about the world, communicate and get fed up themselves. China is starting to do this, US/SK are ignoring it, and seem to be just making the southern border more impenetrable. The opposite of what needs to happen.
3) Non-provocation. It is incredibly clear that NK is running these tests everytime the US shouts loudly. Stop shouting. Slow the development. Stop poking the bugger. There is no point in it. It has not helped one little bit.
4) If you try one tactic of sanctions for 50 years continuously, maybe, just maybe it's not working! wow, what a revelation. FFS, if I try to fix my car with some gaffer tape, and every single day it comes undone, yet everyday I reapply the gaffer tape. I would seriously hope it wouldn't take me 50 years to realise I actually need to fix this, and stop dicking around with gaffer tape.
Great article on US imperialism and North Korea. Perhaps some food for thought to the history-challenged here.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/17/the-proble...
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/17/the-proble...
scherzkeks said:
Great article on US imperialism and North Korea. Perhaps some food for thought to the history-challenged here.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/17/the-proble...
I actually disagree with much of that article.https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/17/the-proble...
The US stepped in to the war because NK had invaded SK. Had never considered the scale of the attack though. 20% of the country wiped out. nuts.
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