North Korea - how serious should we take them?
Discussion
Funkycoldribena said:
So how do you explain the 136 witnesses?
Where did the plane and its passengers go if it was a missile? A tad ridiculous don't you think?
Regarding the Pentagon, I haven't said I subscribe to the missile theory. What I actually said was that there were a bunch of things that didn't appear to quite add up, and that the US Government wasn't helping by refusing to release useful stuff. Which, in turn, fuels conspiracy theories. There we are.Where did the plane and its passengers go if it was a missile? A tad ridiculous don't you think?
Funkycoldribena said:
As to wtc7,surely the only way to bring it down on purpose would be explosives?
Now I'm no expert but that makes a lickle bit of noise yet no one reported hearing anything.
As regards explosions, in fact a number of people reported hearing them, including firefighters in the building at the time. But...Now I'm no expert but that makes a lickle bit of noise yet no one reported hearing anything.
...again, I haven't said I believe in the theory of controlled demolition (obviously some people do). What I have said is that I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe there is a coherent and consistent model of how fire caused it to collapse in the manner it did. Which is a problem, because steel-framed buildings don't usually just drop like that after fire.
Efbe said:
skyrover said:
North Korea has been making unprovoked threats for years... It's part and parcel with their domestic propaganda and so called "fearless leadership"
they have been threatening retaliation. it's a small difference, and doesn't make them right, but there is a distinction there.The current armistice was instigated by the USA and UN in partnership with China and Russia.
North Korea has repeatedly violated the terms of the armistice and also international law.
They may well have developed the Nuclear weapon for self defence, but have also threatened first use and going on previous history, may well use it an an extortion tool to extract sanction relief and food/fuel aid.
There is only one aggressor here and it's not the UN/South Korea/USA
aeropilot said:
skwdenyer said:
As I've said, I'm quite happy for somebody to explain *how* WTC7 would collapse, and I haven't seen that yet. And, yes, I've read the NIST report. I'm not talking about WTC1/2 which are clearly different.
Aah.....sorry didn't realise you were talking about WTC7.So, want don't you understand about the NIST report?
There seem to be a few difficulties with that:
- there appear to be some considerable discrepancies between the NIST numerical model and the as-built structure (in particular built features to prevent just such movement, features not included in the NIST model and - if reports are to be believed - features NIST had previously noted as existing);
- no account is taken of the evidence documented by FEMA, including the "eutectic reactions" and "steel sulfidation" apparent in the recovered materials, along with its apparent contribution to the weakening of the structure - NIST in their report claimed that testing for accelerants or other agents would not necessarily have been definitive and, in consequence, was not done (or reported to have been done) at all;
- despite openly stating that no testing was carried out, NIST nonetheless stated that "no corroborating evidence to suggest that explosives were used";
- the movement of the steel members in response to fire seems strange to me - sufficient heat to cause materially-significant thermal movement, yet with no apparent sagging;
- returning to the strange effects with the steel, multiple witnesses (including a professor of engineering and a structural engineer) have attested to seeing molten steel (not just immediately afterwards, but for a considerable period of time). FEMA reported evidence of heating to >1000 C, which (a) seems strange given the fire load, and (b) doesn't correlate with NIST's report and model
In a wider sense, there was clearly an unholy hurry to get the site cleared and move on. The investigation into Grenfell Tower will have the site cordoned-off for months and months whilst investigations continues. Meanwhile, in a not-dissimilar period of time, the WTC site was cleared - 8 months. The materials were disposed-of quickly and efficiently, precluding the sort of investigation considered normal in (say) aircraft crashes, other criminal acts, and so on. That may not matter; but it certainly seemed a little strange for one of the largest criminal acts in history.
I do have a very open mind. I'm entirely happy to accept a cogent explanation as to how that building (WTC7) came down in that way at that time under those circumstances.
But I also think that there's a lot of conflicting information and very muddled thinking (on all sides); the picture (to me, at least), is not at all clear, and the official reports don't actually seem to match up with the observed (and recorded) facts.
skyrover said:
Efbe said:
skyrover said:
North Korea has been making unprovoked threats for years... It's part and parcel with their domestic propaganda and so called "fearless leadership"
they have been threatening retaliation. it's a small difference, and doesn't make them right, but there is a distinction there.The current armistice was instigated by the USA and UN in partnership with China and Russia.
North Korea has repeatedly violated the terms of the armistice and also international law.
They may well have developed the Nuclear weapon for self defence, but have also threatened first use and going on previous history, may well use it an an extortion tool to extract sanction relief and food/fuel aid.
There is only one aggressor here and it's not the UN/South Korea/USA
Cobnapint said:
skyrover said:
Efbe said:
skyrover said:
North Korea has been making unprovoked threats for years... It's part and parcel with their domestic propaganda and so called "fearless leadership"
they have been threatening retaliation. it's a small difference, and doesn't make them right, but there is a distinction there.The current armistice was instigated by the USA and UN in partnership with China and Russia.
North Korea has repeatedly violated the terms of the armistice and also international law.
They may well have developed the Nuclear weapon for self defence, but have also threatened first use and going on previous history, may well use it an an extortion tool to extract sanction relief and food/fuel aid.
There is only one aggressor here and it's not the UN/South Korea/USA
However, I think the way this is being dealt with by the US/UN is really crap. Should this have been dealt with more carefully and tactically we could be in a very different position now. The heavy sanctions have done nothing to stop the nuclear weapons development, or affected the elite of the country. But they have reduced the people of the country to that of a third world one, which means there is currently zero chance of any internal change or pressure to change. As I have said many times before the ONLY way of resolving this conflict is through internal change, which will just not happen as things stand.
Efbe said:
I would actually agree with that as well.
However, I think the way this is being dealt with by the US/UN is really crap. Should this have been dealt with more carefully and tactically we could be in a very different position now. The heavy sanctions have done nothing to stop the nuclear weapons development, or affected the elite of the country. But they have reduced the people of the country to that of a third world one, which means there is currently zero chance of any internal change or pressure to change. As I have said many times before the ONLY way of resolving this conflict is through internal change, which will just not happen as things stand.
Do what? NK has been treated with kid gloves every step of the way - for decades. They've been sent aid and been involved in all sorts of negotiations - but have repeatedly decide to stick the finger up. The west even let them get away with sinking a SK naval vessel and sending a student back to the US in a coma for nicking a poster.However, I think the way this is being dealt with by the US/UN is really crap. Should this have been dealt with more carefully and tactically we could be in a very different position now. The heavy sanctions have done nothing to stop the nuclear weapons development, or affected the elite of the country. But they have reduced the people of the country to that of a third world one, which means there is currently zero chance of any internal change or pressure to change. As I have said many times before the ONLY way of resolving this conflict is through internal change, which will just not happen as things stand.
Trump may sound unprofesional when he's sounding off on Twitter or at the UN, but the sentiment is right. There is only one way (now) to deal with Fatty and his angry, brainwashed nation.
Cobnapint said:
Do what? NK has been treated with kid gloves every step of the way - for decades. They've been sent aid and been involved in all sorts of negotiations - but have repeatedly decide to stick the finger up. The west even let them get away with sinking a SK naval vessel and sending a student back to the US in a coma for nicking a poster.
Trump may sound unprofesional when he's sounding off on Twitter or at the UN, but the sentiment is right. There is only one way (now) to deal with Fatty and his angry, brainwashed nation.
I'm sure we have been through this before, however...Trump may sound unprofesional when he's sounding off on Twitter or at the UN, but the sentiment is right. There is only one way (now) to deal with Fatty and his angry, brainwashed nation.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, even a North Korean one. You seem to be looking at the most simplistic binary view of international relations. Diplomacy, vs aggression. In reality no change is made through either of these.
Changes are made through a plethora of different avenues. influences made through trade, manipulation of information, media, finance, films, adverts. I don't mean direct obvious interactions, I mean subtle changes that don't look like much at the time.
Look at the recent US elections. Most of Western Europe tried to influence the elections by directly insulting and ridiculing Donald Trump. There were warning about how it would affect the world blah blah blah, it did nothing. Russia however (seems to have) created bots to (I am not very up on this subject) manipulate the social media networks to make the population feel like pro-Trump sentiment was more popular than it may have actually been. Trump won. The Russia vs Western European tactics may not have directly resulted in his win, but in hindsight it is clear to see which worked better.
The way you deal with his brainwashed nation is to un-brainwash it. The worst things you can do is stop the development of the population, to stop trade, travel, westerners visiting, etc.
What the US/UN are doing right now is completely playing into KJU's hand. Sanctions may be useful, but tactical ones, not the ones being used.
I have said it many times before, China is making far better inroads in gaining control within NK. As the tech flows from China to NK, so will information and manipulation. And to be quite frank, I don't like the idea of China having too much control over NK, they do not have a very good reputation for things like this.
Efbe said:
The way you deal with his brainwashed nation is to un-brainwash it. The worst things you can do is stop the development of the population, to stop trade, travel, westerners visiting, etc.
Nobody is allowed anywhere near the population to do the un-brainwashing.And the population isn't allowed anywhere near anybody from the outside in case they do become un-brainwashed.
The only person in NK that isn't brainwashed is the person doing the brainwashing - KJU. He rules through total fear. You don't run for your life in NK - there's nowhere to run to. You clap for your life instead.
Efbe said:
I'm sure we have been through this before, however...
There is more than one way to skin a cat, even a North Korean one. You seem to be looking at the most simplistic binary view of international relations. Diplomacy, vs aggression. In reality no change is made through either of these.
Changes are made through a plethora of different avenues. influences made through trade, manipulation of information, media, finance, films, adverts. I don't mean direct obvious interactions, I mean subtle changes that don't look like much at the time.
Look at the recent US elections. Most of Western Europe tried to influence the elections by directly insulting and ridiculing Donald Trump. There were warning about how it would affect the world blah blah blah, it did nothing. Russia however (seems to have) created bots to (I am not very up on this subject) manipulate the social media networks to make the population feel like pro-Trump sentiment was more popular than it may have actually been. Trump won. The Russia vs Western European tactics may not have directly resulted in his win, but in hindsight it is clear to see which worked better.
The way you deal with his brainwashed nation is to un-brainwash it. The worst things you can do is stop the development of the population, to stop trade, travel, westerners visiting, etc.
What the US/UN are doing right now is completely playing into KJU's hand. Sanctions may be useful, but tactical ones, not the ones being used.
I have said it many times before, China is making far better inroads in gaining control within NK. As the tech flows from China to NK, so will information and manipulation. And to be quite frank, I don't like the idea of China having too much control over NK, they do not have a very good reputation for things like this.
You've been through it with me before and I think you're living in dreamland.There is more than one way to skin a cat, even a North Korean one. You seem to be looking at the most simplistic binary view of international relations. Diplomacy, vs aggression. In reality no change is made through either of these.
Changes are made through a plethora of different avenues. influences made through trade, manipulation of information, media, finance, films, adverts. I don't mean direct obvious interactions, I mean subtle changes that don't look like much at the time.
Look at the recent US elections. Most of Western Europe tried to influence the elections by directly insulting and ridiculing Donald Trump. There were warning about how it would affect the world blah blah blah, it did nothing. Russia however (seems to have) created bots to (I am not very up on this subject) manipulate the social media networks to make the population feel like pro-Trump sentiment was more popular than it may have actually been. Trump won. The Russia vs Western European tactics may not have directly resulted in his win, but in hindsight it is clear to see which worked better.
The way you deal with his brainwashed nation is to un-brainwash it. The worst things you can do is stop the development of the population, to stop trade, travel, westerners visiting, etc.
What the US/UN are doing right now is completely playing into KJU's hand. Sanctions may be useful, but tactical ones, not the ones being used.
I have said it many times before, China is making far better inroads in gaining control within NK. As the tech flows from China to NK, so will information and manipulation. And to be quite frank, I don't like the idea of China having too much control over NK, they do not have a very good reputation for things like this.
No internal revolution is ever going to happen with KJU in power.
Trump knows if he does something against NK - China and Russia WILL retaliate and defend them (if only because it's the excuse they need). This could trigger WW3 (or the frightening modern version of a 'world war' where a couple of radioactive fireworks are flung at each other and it's game over pretty quickly).
So those criticising Trump for not acting should be thankful it's just a war of words! But yeah - it'd be better if he was the bigger man and just STFU.
So those criticising Trump for not acting should be thankful it's just a war of words! But yeah - it'd be better if he was the bigger man and just STFU.
Wait Here Until Green Light Shows said:
Trump knows if he does something against NK - China and Russia WILL retaliate and defend them (if only because it's the excuse they need). This could trigger WW3 (or the frightening modern version of a 'world war' where a couple of radioactive fireworks are flung at each other and it's game over pretty quickly).
So those criticising Trump for not acting should be thankful it's just a war of words! But yeah - it'd be better if he was the bigger man and just STFU.
Korea was only divided in the first place thanks to power politics between the US, Russia and China post WWII. The Korean population didn't want it (North or South). It was a mess to begin with, and it is still a mess. The Korean War (so-called; no war was declared) was similarly a proxy fight. It was the same sort of mess as Isreal, Iraq, post-colonial Africa, etc.So those criticising Trump for not acting should be thankful it's just a war of words! But yeah - it'd be better if he was the bigger man and just STFU.
The only solution worth a damn long-term is the internal revolution one, IMHO. Anything else will just be another mess.
skwdenyer said:
aeropilot said:
skwdenyer said:
As I've said, I'm quite happy for somebody to explain *how* WTC7 would collapse, and I haven't seen that yet. And, yes, I've read the NIST report. I'm not talking about WTC1/2 which are clearly different.
Aah.....sorry didn't realise you were talking about WTC7.So, want don't you understand about the NIST report?
There seem to be a few difficulties with that:
- there appear to be some considerable discrepancies between the NIST numerical model and the as-built structure (in particular built features to prevent just such movement, features not included in the NIST model and - if reports are to be believed - features NIST had previously noted as existing);
- no account is taken of the evidence documented by FEMA, including the "eutectic reactions" and "steel sulfidation" apparent in the recovered materials, along with its apparent contribution to the weakening of the structure - NIST in their report claimed that testing for accelerants or other agents would not necessarily have been definitive and, in consequence, was not done (or reported to have been done) at all;
- despite openly stating that no testing was carried out, NIST nonetheless stated that "no corroborating evidence to suggest that explosives were used";
- the movement of the steel members in response to fire seems strange to me - sufficient heat to cause materially-significant thermal movement, yet with no apparent sagging;
- returning to the strange effects with the steel, multiple witnesses (including a professor of engineering and a structural engineer) have attested to seeing molten steel (not just immediately afterwards, but for a considerable period of time). FEMA reported evidence of heating to >1000 C, which (a) seems strange given the fire load, and (b) doesn't correlate with NIST's report and model
In a wider sense, there was clearly an unholy hurry to get the site cleared and move on. The investigation into Grenfell Tower will have the site cordoned-off for months and months whilst investigations continues. Meanwhile, in a not-dissimilar period of time, the WTC site was cleared - 8 months. The materials were disposed-of quickly and efficiently, precluding the sort of investigation considered normal in (say) aircraft crashes, other criminal acts, and so on. That may not matter; but it certainly seemed a little strange for one of the largest criminal acts in history.
I do have a very open mind. I'm entirely happy to accept a cogent explanation as to how that building (WTC7) came down in that way at that time under those circumstances.
But I also think that there's a lot of conflicting information and very muddled thinking (on all sides); the picture (to me, at least), is not at all clear, and the official reports don't actually seem to match up with the observed (and recorded) facts.
I don't have an issue with the speed at clearance either, no way in that location with that debris field were they ever going to have a cordoned off investigation site to sift through ever microscopic detail over an extended timeframe - just not going to happen, so again, I don't see that as a reason to be suspicious of anything.
Its not to say there aren't anomalies in all the info/evidence, but this is largely due to the nature of the event, its a one off situation of which there was no planning for, not concept of planning for, either the before of the after.
Its largely why events like this will always be associated with conspiracy theories, not different to the sinking of the Titanic, to shooting of JFK, and Diana crash.
People will always think that the unthinkable event can't happen and when it does due to chain of interconnecting events, the removal of any one of which could have stopped the event, there has to be another reason for it.
There's always one...
Cobnapint said:
Efbe said:
The way you deal with his brainwashed nation is to un-brainwash it. The worst things you can do is stop the development of the population, to stop trade, travel, westerners visiting, etc.
Nobody is allowed anywhere near the population to do the un-brainwashing.And the population isn't allowed anywhere near anybody from the outside in case they do become un-brainwashed.
The only person in NK that isn't brainwashed is the person doing the brainwashing - KJU. He rules through total fear. You don't run for your life in NK - there's nowhere to run to. You clap for your life instead.
There is a lot more interaction between china and NK than you may expect. Plenty of business goes on in pyongyang, and there is a marked difference in treatment between western business people and chinese business people.
Chinese tech is there already, albeit with NK software added. There are plenty of north koreans who have managed to put the original chinese back on and more and more information is coming out of there from individuals like this.
You are still looking at this in far too binary a view though, it is not the action of handing a north korean an iphone with the bbc news app on. The first step is years/decades before this, allowing really small electronic goods to be traded, trinkets, cheap watches etc at extremely low prices, so the fledgling trade economy in NK can start up, people from around the country can start to buy things and get used to the idea that there is more to be had. This is what China has been doing for a good while now, and is what I keep banging on about these wonderful sanctions are preventing.
Efbe said:
and is what I keep banging on about these wonderful sanctions are preventing.
Sanctions have never really worked anywhere before, but it's the only tickbox in the UN system that they can tick in the 'we have to be seen to be doing something' category......The UN is a great idea in principle, but a complete waste of space in reality.
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