Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
rdjohn said:
I watch C4 and BBC news frequently, but this week, I do not remember seeing anything about the Italian equivalent of the Monster Raving Loony Party forming a coalition government.
I presume that there is still a lot of goodwill towards the European experiment.
Well the Five Star movement got 32% of the vote, easily the biggest party. More Europe got 2% of the vote. So draw your own conclusionsI presume that there is still a lot of goodwill towards the European experiment.
However againthis is the weakness of PR elections. No one has enough to make a government on their own, so the coaltion is between broadly the right and the left (and the more extreme ends at that) the only thing they have in common is they don't like the EU and they want to stop immigration from Libya.
Gargamel said:
Mrr T said:
Who is this EU man or woman who forced another vote? I have looked on the EU web site and cannot see a picture. Also how did they force a vote? As far as I am aware they do not have any political position in any EU country.
Italians already had Mario Monte foisted on them by them EU with threats that they would withhold debt payments if they went for elections following Berlusconi resigning.Monte appointed a cabinet with almost no actual politicians in it (all Eu technocrats)
At the next actual election, he came 4th.
Mrr T said:
Gargamel said:
Mrr T said:
Who is this EU man or woman who forced another vote? I have looked on the EU web site and cannot see a picture. Also how did they force a vote? As far as I am aware they do not have any political position in any EU country.
Italians already had Mario Monte foisted on them by them EU with threats that they would withhold debt payments if they went for elections following Berlusconi resigning.Monte appointed a cabinet with almost no actual politicians in it (all Eu technocrats)
At the next actual election, he came 4th.
In 2010, Monti was asked by Commission President Manuel Barroso to draft a "Report on the Future of the Single Market" proposing further measures towards the completion of the EU's Single Market. The published report, adopted by the EU on 13 April 2011, proposed 12 reforms to the Single Market and was intended to "give new momentum" to the European economy.
On 12 November 2011, following Berlusconi's resignation, Napolitano invited Monti to form a new government. Monti accepted the offer, and held talks with the leaders of the main Italian political parties, declaring that he wanted to form a government that would remain in office until the next scheduled general elections in 2013.On 16 November 2011, Monti was sworn in as Prime Minister of Italy, after unveiling a technocratic cabinet composed entirely of unelected professionals.
On 4 December 2011, Monti's government introduced emergency austerity measures intended to stem the worsening economic conditions in Italy and restore market confidence, especially after rising Italian government bond yields began to threaten Italy's financial stability. The austerity package called for increased taxes, pension reform and measures to fight tax evasion.
On 21 December 2012, Monti announced his resignation as Prime Minister, having made a public promise to step down on 8 December, after the passing of the 2013 Budget.
The election was held on 24 February 2013, and Monti's centrist coalition was only able to come fourth, with 10.5% of the vote. Monti remained Prime Minister until a coalition was formed on 28 April led by Enrico Letta.
What was the slight problem?
What didn't happen?
don'tbesilly said:
Mrr T said:
Gargamel said:
Mrr T said:
Who is this EU man or woman who forced another vote? I have looked on the EU web site and cannot see a picture. Also how did they force a vote? As far as I am aware they do not have any political position in any EU country.
Italians already had Mario Monte foisted on them by them EU with threats that they would withhold debt payments if they went for elections following Berlusconi resigning.Monte appointed a cabinet with almost no actual politicians in it (all Eu technocrats)
At the next actual election, he came 4th.
In 2010, Monti was asked by Commission President Manuel Barroso to draft a "Report on the Future of the Single Market" proposing further measures towards the completion of the EU's Single Market. The published report, adopted by the EU on 13 April 2011, proposed 12 reforms to the Single Market and was intended to "give new momentum" to the European economy.
On 12 November 2011, following Berlusconi's resignation, Napolitano invited Monti to form a new government. Monti accepted the offer, and held talks with the leaders of the main Italian political parties, declaring that he wanted to form a government that would remain in office until the next scheduled general elections in 2013.On 16 November 2011, Monti was sworn in as Prime Minister of Italy, after unveiling a technocratic cabinet composed entirely of unelected professionals.
On 4 December 2011, Monti's government introduced emergency austerity measures intended to stem the worsening economic conditions in Italy and restore market confidence, especially after rising Italian government bond yields began to threaten Italy's financial stability. The austerity package called for increased taxes, pension reform and measures to fight tax evasion.
On 21 December 2012, Monti announced his resignation as Prime Minister, having made a public promise to step down on 8 December, after the passing of the 2013 Budget.
The election was held on 24 February 2013, and Monti's centrist coalition was only able to come fourth, with 10.5% of the vote. Monti remained Prime Minister until a coalition was formed on 28 April led by Enrico Letta.
What was the slight problem?
What didn't happen?
Gargamel said:
Italians already had Mario Monte foisted on them by them EU with threats that they would withhold debt payments if they went for elections following Berlusconi resigning.
Wrong the crisis was caused by rising yields on Italian bonds which meant the country might not be able to fund its debt.He was appointed by the President of Italy because the political parties would not address the problems.
Gargamel said:
Monte appointed a cabinet with almost no actual politicians in it (all Eu technocrats)
There where politicians and one or two may have worked with the EU at some time but all where Italian and none could be described as EU technocrats.Gargamel said:
At the next actual election, he came 4th.
By the time of the next election he had already stood down and dissolved the interim government. He then formed his own party and in the one bit that’s right he came 4th. Since the policies of his party were continuing austerity and labour reform, 4th with 10% of the vote was not bad.Mrr T said:
don'tbesilly said:
Mrr T said:
Gargamel said:
Mrr T said:
Who is this EU man or woman who forced another vote? I have looked on the EU web site and cannot see a picture. Also how did they force a vote? As far as I am aware they do not have any political position in any EU country.
Italians already had Mario Monte foisted on them by them EU with threats that they would withhold debt payments if they went for elections following Berlusconi resigning.Monte appointed a cabinet with almost no actual politicians in it (all Eu technocrats)
At the next actual election, he came 4th.
In 2010, Monti was asked by Commission President Manuel Barroso to draft a "Report on the Future of the Single Market" proposing further measures towards the completion of the EU's Single Market. The published report, adopted by the EU on 13 April 2011, proposed 12 reforms to the Single Market and was intended to "give new momentum" to the European economy.
On 12 November 2011, following Berlusconi's resignation, Napolitano invited Monti to form a new government. Monti accepted the offer, and held talks with the leaders of the main Italian political parties, declaring that he wanted to form a government that would remain in office until the next scheduled general elections in 2013.On 16 November 2011, Monti was sworn in as Prime Minister of Italy, after unveiling a technocratic cabinet composed entirely of unelected professionals.
On 4 December 2011, Monti's government introduced emergency austerity measures intended to stem the worsening economic conditions in Italy and restore market confidence, especially after rising Italian government bond yields began to threaten Italy's financial stability. The austerity package called for increased taxes, pension reform and measures to fight tax evasion.
On 21 December 2012, Monti announced his resignation as Prime Minister, having made a public promise to step down on 8 December, after the passing of the 2013 Budget.
The election was held on 24 February 2013, and Monti's centrist coalition was only able to come fourth, with 10.5% of the vote. Monti remained Prime Minister until a coalition was formed on 28 April led by Enrico Letta.
What was the slight problem?
What didn't happen?
Gargamel said:
Italians already had Mario Monte foisted on them by them EU with threats that they would withhold debt payments if they went for elections following Berlusconi resigning.
Wrong the crisis was caused by rising yields on Italian bonds which meant the country might not be able to fund its debt.He was appointed by the President of Italy because the political parties would not address the problems.
Gargamel said:
Monte appointed a cabinet with almost no actual politicians in it (all Eu technocrats)
There where politicians and one or two may have worked with the EU at some time but all where Italian and none could be described as EU technocrats.Gargamel said:
At the next actual election, he came 4th.
By the time of the next election he had already stood down and dissolved the interim government. He then formed his own party and in the one bit that’s right he came 4th. Since the policies of his party were continuing austerity and labour reform, 4th with 10% of the vote was not bad.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzo_Moavero_Milanes...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Catania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorio_Grilli
Here's three that were all in the EU
I can't understand why you would debate the point quite so vigorously. I haven't even mentioned what the EU did to democracy in Ireland or in Greece.
In Italy the elected government failed after Berlusconi resigned, and Monti was appointed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Monti
They were all technically EU technocrats.
HOWEVER, in the scheme of things, Monte and co were probably exactly what Italy needed at the time, i.e. a bit of stability amidst the swirling waters.
What is currently on the cards, is, as Enrico suggests...all a bit of a confusion. Which isn't terribly great for anybody, least of all the Italians! Having any kind of ItalExit crisis right now would be sodding disastrous for Italy and I can't see any politician in Italy of any kind wanting to go down that avenue. Even the LN or 5* aren't that daft!
HOWEVER, in the scheme of things, Monte and co were probably exactly what Italy needed at the time, i.e. a bit of stability amidst the swirling waters.
What is currently on the cards, is, as Enrico suggests...all a bit of a confusion. Which isn't terribly great for anybody, least of all the Italians! Having any kind of ItalExit crisis right now would be sodding disastrous for Italy and I can't see any politician in Italy of any kind wanting to go down that avenue. Even the LN or 5* aren't that daft!
Gargamel said:
None could be described as technocrats. Ok what is your definition of a Technocrat... mine would be someone who is NOT an elected politician, but there for subject matter knowledge, without the consent of the electorate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzo_Moavero_Milanes...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Catania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorio_Grilli
Here's three that were all in the EU
I can't understand why you would debate the point quite so vigorously. I haven't even mentioned what the EU did to democracy in Ireland or in Greece.
In Italy the elected government failed after Berlusconi resigned, and Monti was appointed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Monti
I did not say they were not technocrats I said that where not EU technocrats. Only I think 3 out of 25 had any past connect with the EU.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzo_Moavero_Milanes...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Catania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorio_Grilli
Here's three that were all in the EU
I can't understand why you would debate the point quite so vigorously. I haven't even mentioned what the EU did to democracy in Ireland or in Greece.
In Italy the elected government failed after Berlusconi resigned, and Monti was appointed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Monti
As for your suggestion the EU did any thing to Irish or Greek democracy once again you are making things up.
It seems in the fevered imagination of many on team leave the EU is some sort of monster trying to take over Europe.
DeejRC said:
They were all technically EU technocrats.
HOWEVER, in the scheme of things, Monte and co were probably exactly what Italy needed at the time, i.e. a bit of stability amidst the swirling waters.
What is currently on the cards, is, as Enrico suggests...all a bit of a confusion. Which isn't terribly great for anybody, least of all the Italians! Having any kind of ItalExit crisis right now would be sodding disastrous for Italy and I can't see any politician in Italy of any kind wanting to go down that avenue. Even the LN or 5* aren't that daft!
Ah don't mistake me, Monti was an honorable man and did a solid job. Proof that sometimes countries are better off without the politicians. Yes he was an EU placeman and the cabinet was stuffed with ex bankers and former EU council members or committee members or other solid establishment figures. But after Berlusconi, frankly anything was likely to be an improvement. HOWEVER, in the scheme of things, Monte and co were probably exactly what Italy needed at the time, i.e. a bit of stability amidst the swirling waters.
What is currently on the cards, is, as Enrico suggests...all a bit of a confusion. Which isn't terribly great for anybody, least of all the Italians! Having any kind of ItalExit crisis right now would be sodding disastrous for Italy and I can't see any politician in Italy of any kind wanting to go down that avenue. Even the LN or 5* aren't that daft!
I don't think it is really up for debate that the EU in undemocratic. What else would you call an institution whose most powerful members aren't elected, or who send nations back for second referendums if they get the wrong answer. Or who change the Treaty documents via amendment so as not to require a "popular" vote.
The whole sense of we know best that infests the EU from gilded head to velvet slipper, is exactly why I wanted out.
Mrr T said:
It seems in the fevered imagination of many on team leave the EU is some sort of monster trying to take over Europe.
Um, isn't that exactly what the "U" bit of the EU means? It stopped being a common market many years ago, and its regulatory power extends into many areas of daily life. ("fevered imagination" and "monster" are your words. And just FYI, re "team leave" - I voted to Remain.)
Mrr T said:
It seems in the fevered imagination of many on team leave the EU is some sort of monster trying to take over Europe.
Not unfounded IMO. It started as a simple trading block, but has morphed into an entity whereby the EU court has jurisdiction over any other court in the land, and thus the EU is able to have far more authority than was ever given to it in the first place.
At the same time as insisting on EU wide regulation and legislation it seems unable to help when states have issues created, in part by the EU. So when Italy is dealing with African immigrants, encouraged by Merkle and her open door policy, as well as the EU CHR, the EU response has been woeful leaving the Italians feeling totally neglected. It is hardly surprising they are struggling to see the value in the EU project.
Escapegoat said:
Mrr T said:
It seems in the fevered imagination of many on team leave the EU is some sort of monster trying to take over Europe.
Um, isn't that exactly what the "U" bit of the EU means? It stopped being a common market many years ago, and its regulatory power extends into many areas of daily life. ("fevered imagination" and "monster" are your words. And just FYI, re "team leave" - I voted to Remain.)
Given the stage we are at, it would be far, far better if we all - leave, remain or indifferent - accept the situation and stop raking over old ground. Discussing the issues as they are is far more challenging and interesting than the tedious leave vs. remain entrenchment.
The point made earlier by DeejRC and Gargamel about Mario Monte is interesting; sometimes technocrats are better than politicians, especially politicians like Berlusconi. It leaves us with and awkward fact to reflect on, with regard to 'democracy'.
Digga said:
The point made earlier by DeejRC and Gargamel about Mario Monte is interesting; sometimes technocrats are better than politicians, especially politicians like Berlusconi. It leaves us with and awkward fact to reflect on, with regard to 'democracy'.
Not really. It's a timely reminder that unlike soap powder adverts, successive leaders are not automagically guaranteed to be 'better' than their predecessors. We can have governments that are better for some areas of our society, but worse in others. Some are just across the board rubbish.Technocrat or not - the people in power can ***k up.
Which is why democracy is vital, because 'we the people' need the opportunity to learn from our mistakes and get rid of them.
It doesn't guarantee we're free of mistakes, of setbacks and troubles, but it does give us the chance to recover from them. The undemocratic alternative is for the people who think they know better to hang on until collapse or bloody revolution.
Tuna said:
Digga said:
The point made earlier by DeejRC and Gargamel about Mario Monte is interesting; sometimes technocrats are better than politicians, especially politicians like Berlusconi. It leaves us with and awkward fact to reflect on, with regard to 'democracy'.
Not really. It's a timely reminder that unlike soap powder adverts, successive leaders are not automagically guaranteed to be 'better' than their predecessors. We can have governments that are better for some areas of our society, but worse in others. Some are just across the board rubbish.Technocrat or not - the people in power can ***k up.
Which is why democracy is vital, because 'we the people' need the opportunity to learn from our mistakes and get rid of them.
It doesn't guarantee we're free of mistakes, of setbacks and troubles, but it does give us the chance to recover from them. The undemocratic alternative is for the people who think they know better to hang on until collapse or bloody revolution.
Mrr T said:
It seems in the fevered imagination of many on team leave the EU is some sort of monster trying to take over Europe.
Which, of course, it us and it actually doesn’t need imagination to see itIt takes something rather special )and not in a good way) to deny it, though.
Well done.
Digga said:
There is something about the serial short-termism of democratic governance that concerns me. IMHO one of the reasons the German economy has fared consistently well is their longer-term planning and fiscal responsibility.
Not to mention cheap supply line of free access labour, tied in markets etc 
Murph7355 said:
Digga said:
There is something about the serial short-termism of democratic governance that concerns me. IMHO one of the reasons the German economy has fared consistently well is their longer-term planning and fiscal responsibility.
Not to mention cheap supply line of free access labour, tied in markets etc 
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