War with Russia

[stevesingo]

Had there been a free vote for independence prior to the annexation of Crimea by Russian, you might have a point. But there wasn't, so you haven't.

[AreOut]

Atomic12C said:

Apart from Crimea which is its own side-situation, what plans are there for Russia to invade and 'conquer' Ukraine ?
(I'm not that good at reading Russian, so couldn't find any of their top-secret military strategy papers to read on-line )

they wouldn't exactly "conquer" it, more like bring back their own puppet president who would be much tougher on people than yanukovich, any attempt to take him down would be met with sheer force

if it went as planned they would possibly give back Crimea to Ukraine because then it would be under their control anyway

[Octoposse]

stevesingo said:

Had there been a free vote for independence prior to the annexation of Crimea by Russian, you might have a point. But there wasn't, so you haven't.

The vote was undoubtedly flawed, but the result still clearly reflects majority opinion. No one seriously contends otherwise.

And if 'our' argument is about process, then perhaps we should have engaged politically and diplomatically rather than deciding to fight to the last Ukrainian.

There's been an obvious, viable, sustainable peace deal to be had for nearly four years now. Russia wants it. We don't.

[stevesingo]

Russia wants it, no one else does because it would legitimise the invading of neighbouring countries without the need for self defence.

[Octoposse]

stevesingo said:

Russia wants it, no one else does because it would legitimise the invading of neighbouring countries without the need for self defence.

I don't recall Serbian tanks rolling up the Champs-Élysées before we used overwhelming military force to dismember that sovereign state and its recognised borders. (Pissing on Russian sensibilities with huge impact today).

In any event, Crimea is Russia now. I don't see that refusing to recognise that is the ethical position given that that recognition is an essential step to ending conflict in Eastern Ukraine.

[Cobnapint]

Octoposse said:

I don't recall Serbian tanks rolling up the Champs-Élysées before we used overwhelming military force to dismember that sovereign state and its recognised borders. (Pissing on Russian sensibilities with huge impact today).

In any event, Crimea is Russia now. I don't see that refusing to recognise that is the ethical position given that that recognition is an essential step to ending conflict in Eastern Ukraine.

Ethical position...?! You want to legitimise the fact that Putin invaded a democratic independent country, one that was subject to a memorandum signed both by Russia and the West to respect it's independence AND borders, purely because it looked like it wanted to lean a little to the West. And you think that's good reason to call off Putin's war dogs in the East?

Ethical fail on your behalf there.

[AreOut]

Ukraine is as democratic as Russia.

[Cobnapint]

AreOut said:

Ukraine is as democratic as Russia.

What, they assassinate or arrest the opposition leader on 'corruption charges' just before every election?

[stevesingo]

Cobnapint said:

Octoposse said:

I don't recall Serbian tanks rolling up the Champs-Élysées before we used overwhelming military force to dismember that sovereign state and its recognised borders. (Pissing on Russian sensibilities with huge impact today).

In any event, Crimea is Russia now. I don't see that refusing to recognise that is the ethical position given that that recognition is an essential step to ending conflict in Eastern Ukraine.

Ethical position...?! You want to legitimise the fact that Putin invaded a democratic independent country, one that was subject to a memorandum signed both by Russia and the West to respect it's independence AND borders, purely because it looked like it wanted to lean a little to the West. And you think that's good reason to call off Putin's war dogs in the East?

Ethical fail on your behalf there.

Quite. The situation in Yugoslavia, was slightly different to Crimea/Ukraine. Unless the whole world has missed the genocide being committed by the Ukrainian state on the ethnic minority.

There are some really historically ignorant posters.

Anyway, interesting overview of Putin's private army.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42636245

[AreOut]

Cobnapint said:

What, they assassinate or arrest the opposition leader on 'corruption charges' just before every election?

very similar, you are obviously uninformed about situation there the ruling people have changed the system hasn't though

[Octoposse]

Cobnapint said:

Ethical position...?! You want to legitimise the fact that Putin invaded a democratic independent country, one that was subject to a memorandum signed both by Russia and the West to respect it's independence AND borders, purely because it looked like it wanted to lean a little to the West. And you think that's good reason to call off Putin's war dogs in the East?

Ethical fail on your behalf there.

Well, Ukraine WAS a democracy but we didn't seem to much like democratic and constitutional processes there, the outcome of which was choosing closer links with Russia - hence regime change.

'Self Determination of Peoples' applies to the Russian majority in Crimea which was part of Russia from about the time that the United States came into existence.

So what's the plan? Keep the conflict going to no useful purpose but out of pique?

[AreOut]

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-azov-right-wing-mi...

good luck with this

[Halb]

Nasty situation all round, extremest on the rise in Russia, Ukraine and the rest.

I'd like to think that NATO/EU/the West will change their tried and tested 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' mentality that helps exacerbate these sorts of situations.

[Pupp]

Deconfliction?

[frankenstein12]

Pupp said:

Deconfliction?

Hah!

I do worry where this is all going to go. I think the only reason the US got away with doing what they did is that the Russian S 400's are located khmeimim airbase and i would guess its out of the range to cover the airspace.

I wonder if the Russians will now supply extra S-400 armaments to cover all Syrian airspace and push the US out as this latest action along with the USA's present anti Russia narrative is I suspect starting to really piss of the Russians and they may decide to say stuff it and offer to shoot down any US aircraft or missile over Syria.

Reality is legally Russia/Syria would be perfectly entitled in law to do so as the US is operating in Syria Ilegally and I doubt any country in the world would be stupid enough to stand at the US governments side in taking any form of military action against Russia if the Russians shot down a US aircraft.

[AreOut]

I don't think Russia would push for that, at least not before they finish the job in western Syria and make a deal with Turkey.

[jonnyb]

frankenstein12 said:

Pupp said:

Deconfliction?

Hah!

I do worry where this is all going to go. I think the only reason the US got away with doing what they did is that the Russian S 400's are located khmeimim airbase and i would guess its out of the range to cover the airspace.

I wonder if the Russians will now supply extra S-400 armaments to cover all Syrian airspace and push the US out as this latest action along with the USA's present anti Russia narrative is I suspect starting to really piss of the Russians and they may decide to say stuff it and offer to shoot down any US aircraft or missile over Syria.

Reality is legally Russia/Syria would be perfectly entitled in law to do so as the US is operating in Syria Ilegally and I doubt any country in the world would be stupid enough to stand at the US governments side in taking any form of military action against Russia if the Russians shot down a US aircraft.

Russia is not about to knowingly shoot down a US military jet. Putin is many things but he isn’t stupid.
Given the current incumbent at the White House the results of doing so would be unpredictable to say the least.

[DMN]

"Scores" of Russians killed in a US airstrike:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/13/russ...

[BlackLabel]

I see we’ve just accused Russia of the NotPetya cyber-attack.



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/...

[AreOut]

Russia said 5 of its citizens killed, there were other nationalities included though.