Meanwhile in Turkey
Discussion
jjlynn27 said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
jjlynn27 said:
RBH58 said:
Considering the extent to which the "No" case was shut down, 51% (assuming it isn't a fix) is hardly a resounding endorsement.
It's got Trump's support so that must count for something surely?
Guvernator said:
Very good post by nyxster on how Erdogan has manipulated the system perfectly to achieve his goals. Despite the election rigging, massive state funded yes campaign and even forming a coalition with one of the other parties the MHP, he still only managed to get 51% which just goes to show that not everyone in Turkey has been taken in by this charlatan.
The voting map does clearly show that the mostly educated city folk have seen through this sham but unfortunately Turkey still has a huge rural population who are ill educated and easily led, especially since Erdogan controls 95% of the mass media in the country.
There is also a very weird social condition which seems prevalent in Turkey in that people with influence and power are put on a massive pedestal, more so than many Western countries which means that Erdogan is almost worshipped and has VERY fanatical support. This could be a huge problem if their is a concerted effort at opposition to his plans as they won't go quietly so it will invariably lead to civil war and possibly trouble for the EU.
Ataturk's whole philosophy was to try to separate politics from religion but Erdogan has realised that religion is a very powerful tool and has done exactly the opposite, used religion to gain political power.
I really don't know what Erdogan's end game is though. Surely he has enough money to be able to retire and live 100 peaceful lifetimes now, I really don't know why he seems determined to make so many enemies, just to hold onto political power for a few more years.
Power and a Caliphate, that's his end game. They clue is in his constant bleating and social engineering to create a "pious generation".The voting map does clearly show that the mostly educated city folk have seen through this sham but unfortunately Turkey still has a huge rural population who are ill educated and easily led, especially since Erdogan controls 95% of the mass media in the country.
There is also a very weird social condition which seems prevalent in Turkey in that people with influence and power are put on a massive pedestal, more so than many Western countries which means that Erdogan is almost worshipped and has VERY fanatical support. This could be a huge problem if their is a concerted effort at opposition to his plans as they won't go quietly so it will invariably lead to civil war and possibly trouble for the EU.
Ataturk's whole philosophy was to try to separate politics from religion but Erdogan has realised that religion is a very powerful tool and has done exactly the opposite, used religion to gain political power.
I really don't know what Erdogan's end game is though. Surely he has enough money to be able to retire and live 100 peaceful lifetimes now, I really don't know why he seems determined to make so many enemies, just to hold onto political power for a few more years.
You mention the educated voters however what surprised me was the not so educated voters who have pushed back; look at the demographics and it is quite clear people have had enough. A good example is Uskudar (in Istanbul) where Reggie boy was the sitting member when he was and MP and the PM, it is consistently AKP around 60% of the vote however in the referendum is it was well over 50% "no". It is a real mix but has a large element of not so educated - and religious - people. Same with Eyup, a very strong "no" vote (anyone who knows Istanbul will know what I mean and why I use these two town council areas as examples).
Go to the south-east and Tunceli was 80% "no".
Let's look at the overseas voters:
Interestingly the foreign Turkish voters were mainly no but Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, France were strongly "yes", all others were well over 50% "no", those in the Gulf countries were 75%+ "no" (so probably the well educated Turks).
(I cannot locate the results by country, will try to find them again and post the link).
Anyway... back to the TV to see how the protests are going tonight, it kicked off in Kadikoy around 11:30pm on Sunday night and again last night and tonight (Kadikoy is 80% "no"). I should probably duck out and join them
jjlynn27 said:
You are wrong on pretty much everything you post. .
Except for the bit about you having no friends As I said, I made a mistake, I was wrong. If you had any social ability you would know that when someone admits a fault. you don't keep bringing it up. As it happens the fact you keep jumping on one of my many flaws says more about you and your autistic screeching. You should follow Paul Watson on Twitter. He'll give you a reason to get up in the morning really angry that you, and your political opinions are irrelevant
Conservatism is the NEW counter culture. Lefties ARE the establishment, and they will NEVER be cool 
It doesn't really matter, BREXIT is happening. Trump is POTUS and in 8 weeks time Mrs May will be returned with a mandate and an even bigger majority from the people of this country you so despise.
Watching you fall apart with woe over it, will be so joyous
You might even lose your EU funded Green Energy off the back of it. LOLz
Likes Fast Cars said:
Let's look at the overseas voters: Interestingly the foreign Turkish voters were mainly no but Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, France were strongly "yes", all others were well over 50% "no", those in the Gulf countries were 75%+ "no" (so probably the well educated Turks)
Couple of data points for Germany. Around 3.5m citizens of Turkish origin live here. Of those, 1.43m were eligible to vote (passport holders). 0.53m did. 63% voted yes which is 23% of potential voters. Or much less if looking at the 3.5m. Case could be made that the group that does not own a Turkish passport any more plus the group of non-voters are pretty much at home in Germany and don't have a deep interest in Turkish affairs.
There is also events like the arrest of Deniz Yücel. Dual national journalist for a leading (conservative) newspaper and still in jail in Turkey on terror charges. All over the news here. This will not have made getting a Turkish passport any more popular, especially for Erdogan opposers that might want or need to travel to Turkey.
Some might also not have been able or willing to register at their Turkish consulate. Depending on where you live this would have been quite a hassle due to the limited voting infrastructure.
Finally, some passport holders might also have been scared of registering and voting. Hard to blame them seeing how easy it is to get on some sort of 'terror-list'.
I was not aware of the numbers before, but explains my own experience. Irrelevant sample size, but when chatting with colleagues or from what I could pick up in shops, on the street etc., few to zero seemed to support Erdogan in the referendum.
jjlynn27 said:
jsf said:
When a degree was more valued by employers, it was not the common thing to go to university. My generation didn't as a matter of course go to Uni, The brighter kids usually went to 6th form or technical college with only the very academic carrying on studying to university level.
The majority of kids went straight from school at 16 into work. End of school at 16 really did mean end of your formal education outside the workplace for most people. Your education then continued at work with apprenticeships or day release to technical college. There was a lot of pressure for the average kid to get into work as quickly as possible.
This all changed in the late 80's and through the 90's where the average kid was expected to go to 6th form, then onto the new universities (old polytechnics).
So trying to use a degree as a gauge for intelligence for the older generations in particular is a rather silly thing to do, it wasn't an option for a lot of people and wasn't a desired requirement for the country and its job market at the time.
Or in short; 'My excuse for not going to Uni, but still call want to call myself an 'engineer''. The majority of kids went straight from school at 16 into work. End of school at 16 really did mean end of your formal education outside the workplace for most people. Your education then continued at work with apprenticeships or day release to technical college. There was a lot of pressure for the average kid to get into work as quickly as possible.
This all changed in the late 80's and through the 90's where the average kid was expected to go to 6th form, then onto the new universities (old polytechnics).
So trying to use a degree as a gauge for intelligence for the older generations in particular is a rather silly thing to do, it wasn't an option for a lot of people and wasn't a desired requirement for the country and its job market at the time.
I've done OK thanks, had a very interesting work life and am now one of the best in my field. The people who trust me with their lives don't seem too bothered by my lack of a degree.
jsf said:
Where are the excuses? I've just explained the reality of my generation and how looking at someones formal education isn't a good gauge of intelligence or ability.
I've done OK thanks, had a very interesting work life and am now one of the best in my field. The people who trust me with their lives don't seem too bothered by my lack of a degree.
I wouldn't fret over it. This lot are at Harvard and based on their emotional response to the wearing of halloween costumes I'd suggest they're not to be trusted to change a light bulb without adult supervision let alone anything involving serious inplications for human life...I've done OK thanks, had a very interesting work life and am now one of the best in my field. The people who trust me with their lives don't seem too bothered by my lack of a degree.
https://youtu.be/1VEZImfFCTU
Rich_W said:
jjlynn27 said:
You are wrong on pretty much everything you post. .
Except for the bit about you having no friends As I said, I made a mistake, I was wrong. If you had any social ability you would know that when someone admits a fault. you don't keep bringing it up. As it happens the fact you keep jumping on one of my many flaws says more about you and your autistic screeching. You should follow Paul Watson on Twitter. He'll give you a reason to get up in the morning really angry that you, and your political opinions are irrelevant
Conservatism is the NEW counter culture. Lefties ARE the establishment, and they will NEVER be cool It doesn't really matter, BREXIT is happening. Trump is POTUS and in 8 weeks time Mrs May will be returned with a mandate and an even bigger majority from the people of this country you so despise.
Watching you fall apart with woe over it, will be so joyous
You might even lose your EU funded Green Energy off the back of it. LOLz
'Left are establishment'. Yep, Jeremy Corbyn is a prime example.
The Brits are very similar to the Aussie's politically. They typically vote just to the right of centre. Tony Blair knew this when he launched New Labor (with the help of the same Aussie's that put the similarly Centre-Right Hawke/Keating government into power in Aus). Brits (and Aussies) don't seem to care much for extreme ends of the political spectrum generally. Corbyn is therefore unelectable. And I suspect that May is more "centre" than people think.
Edited by RBH58 on Wednesday 19th April 01:14
RBH58 said:
The Brits are very similar to the Aussie's politically. They typically vote just to the right of centre. Tony Blair knew this when he launched New Labor (with the help of the same Aussie's that put the similarly Centre-Right Hawke/Keating government into power in Aus). Brits (and Aussies) don't seem to care much for extreme ends of the political spectrum generally. Corbyn is therefore unelectable. And I suspect that May is more "centre" than people think.
& Lynton Crosby will be running the campaign .....Edited by RBH58 on Wednesday 19th April 01:14
Kolbenkopp said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
Let's look at the overseas voters: Interestingly the foreign Turkish voters were mainly no but Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, France were strongly "yes", all others were well over 50% "no", those in the Gulf countries were 75%+ "no" (so probably the well educated Turks)
Couple of data points for Germany. .......There is also events like the arrest of Deniz Yücel. ......
Kolbenkopp said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
..... Finally, some passport holders might also have been scared of registering and voting. Hard to blame them seeing how easy it is to get on some sort of 'terror-list'.
I was not aware of the numbers before, but explains my own experience. Irrelevant sample size, but when chatting with colleagues or from what I could pick up in shops, on the street etc., few to zero seemed to support Erdogan in the referendum.
The threats the AKP and especially make are disgraceful. The campaign was full of blatant lies and threats, the man is a mad dictator.I was not aware of the numbers before, but explains my own experience. Irrelevant sample size, but when chatting with colleagues or from what I could pick up in shops, on the street etc., few to zero seemed to support Erdogan in the referendum.
Interesting that so many see through it, the "few to zero seemed to support Erdogan in the referendum" were definitely countered by those voting for "yes", or by the AKP rigging the ballots.
RBH58 said:
The Brits are very similar to the Aussie's politically. They typically vote just to the right of centre. Tony Blair knew this when he launched New Labor (with the help of the same Aussie's that put the similarly Centre-Right Hawke/Keating government into power in Aus). Brits (and Aussies) don't seem to care much for extreme ends of the political spectrum generally. Corbyn is therefore unelectable. And I suspect that May is more "centre" than people think.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-may-is-the-most-left-wing-tory-prime-minister-for-40-years/Edited by RBH58 on Wednesday 19th April 01:14
May is even accused of being socialist by some ex Tory MPs.
She wants to reduce the wealth gap, not big on public schools. She's been trying to stamp out Cameron's old boy network. She's more popular in the north than south of the uk,
She didn't want brexit and is targeting labour voters as Corby heads off left. I think a lot of Blair voters and or middle ground floating voters will find May very electable.
Hopefully she will get some time to run the country the way she wants rather than being dominated by sorting out the Brexit she didn't want and inherited from Cameron.
Likes Fast Cars said:
RBH58 said:
The Brits are very similar to the Aussie's politically. They typically vote just to the right of centre. Tony Blair knew this when he launched New Labor (with the help of the same Aussie's that put the similarly Centre-Right Hawke/Keating government into power in Aus). Brits (and Aussies) don't seem to care much for extreme ends of the political spectrum generally. Corbyn is therefore unelectable. And I suspect that May is more "centre" than people think.
& Lynton Crosby will be running the campaign .....Edited by RBH58 on Wednesday 19th April 01:14
RBH58 said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
RBH58 said:
The Brits are very similar to the Aussie's politically. They typically vote just to the right of centre. Tony Blair knew this when he launched New Labor (with the help of the same Aussie's that put the similarly Centre-Right Hawke/Keating government into power in Aus). Brits (and Aussies) don't seem to care much for extreme ends of the political spectrum generally. Corbyn is therefore unelectable. And I suspect that May is more "centre" than people think.
& Lynton Crosby will be running the campaign .....Edited by RBH58 on Wednesday 19th April 01:14
ked-up quite a few campaigns.Managed to get my hands on a set of the stats for overseas votes cast by Turkish citizens abroad:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-17/australia...
Makes for interesting reading.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-17/australia...
Makes for interesting reading.
Likes Fast Cars said:
Managed to get my hands on a set of the stats for overseas votes cast by Turkish citizens abroad:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-17/australia...
Makes for interesting reading.
It does indeed. Especially the Dutch result. http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-17/australia...
Makes for interesting reading.
I suspect the yes\no split abroad is between the older generation of manual labourers who left Turkey decades ago. These people have never properly integrated into their adoptive countries so it's not really surprising that they identify more with Erdogan then with the more democratic countries they live in.
The second generation of immigrants and new influx of Turks tend to me be more modern thinking leading to divides, even between parents and children as to who supports Erdogan and who doesn't.
This all stems from a long running problem in Turkey which has always had a huge divide between the left and right, much bigger than in many Western countries. They don't really do centre politics like we do here, you are either an extreme right religious traditionalist or an extreme left semi-atheist modernist, there is very little grey area or crossover between the two.
I've personally been accused of being a commie leftie heathen while talking to older right wing Turks when I'd consider myself to be more centre right, just because my views are not extreme right enough!
Oh and latest news is that if\when Erdogan manages to get this referendum through, he will be holding a referendum on capital punishment next, what step was that on dictators playbook guide again?
The second generation of immigrants and new influx of Turks tend to me be more modern thinking leading to divides, even between parents and children as to who supports Erdogan and who doesn't.
This all stems from a long running problem in Turkey which has always had a huge divide between the left and right, much bigger than in many Western countries. They don't really do centre politics like we do here, you are either an extreme right religious traditionalist or an extreme left semi-atheist modernist, there is very little grey area or crossover between the two.
I've personally been accused of being a commie leftie heathen while talking to older right wing Turks when I'd consider myself to be more centre right, just because my views are not extreme right enough!
Oh and latest news is that if\when Erdogan manages to get this referendum through, he will be holding a referendum on capital punishment next, what step was that on dictators playbook guide again?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff