Meanwhile in Turkey
Discussion
Guvernator said:
Possibly but what was the alternative? Carry on in the way they have been? You can't expect to spend money like there is no tomorrow while constantly failing to collect taxes.
There is a very weird culture in a lot of Mediterranean countries, Turkey included where the population expects the government to provide the very best public services but no one wants to pay for it. Tax avoidance is almost elevated to an art form. It's the reason why countries like Greece, Turkey, Spain, Italy will never be financially stable unless there is a big change in that culture.
As you say, it's their culture. That will never change, so they will never be financially 'stable'. In some respects it's surprising that they've coped (just about) for so long already.There is a very weird culture in a lot of Mediterranean countries, Turkey included where the population expects the government to provide the very best public services but no one wants to pay for it. Tax avoidance is almost elevated to an art form. It's the reason why countries like Greece, Turkey, Spain, Italy will never be financially stable unless there is a big change in that culture.
The trouble with what the Troika did to Greece was that much of it was guaranteed to push the country further into recession and, therefore, further away from being able to sustain public and private levels of debt. Sure, profligacy is not to be encouraged, but you can't shut the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Furthermore, there were no revisions to ridiculously anti-business legislation that has hamstrung the SME economy there for decades, the principal piece being that firms must pay corporation tax up front.
Furthermore, there were no revisions to ridiculously anti-business legislation that has hamstrung the SME economy there for decades, the principal piece being that firms must pay corporation tax up front.
Lots of totally unfounded and ignorant remarks about the reasons for Turkey’s current economic problems. Let me put it this way - they have nothing to do with the population not paying tax properly or having a manana mentality. But why let the facts get in the way of a good prejudiced moan... 
P.S I hope Erdogan gets it this time - at 6.50 to the $ even his most fervent supporters would question his economic “wisdom”...
P.S I hope Erdogan gets it this time - at 6.50 to the $ even his most fervent supporters would question his economic “wisdom”...
Cheburator mk2 said:
Lots of totally unfounded and ignorant remarks about the reasons for Turkey’s current economic problems. Let me put it this way - they have nothing to do with the population not paying tax properly or having a manana mentality. But why let the facts get in the way of a good prejudiced moan...
P.S I hope Erdogan gets it this time - at 6.50 to the $ even his most fervent supporters would question his economic “wisdom”...
That's not the main reason no, Erdoğan's slow but steady dismantling of the countries finances is mostly to blame but tax avoidance is a massive factor in many countries in that region including Turkey. I have friends who live there, trust me it's a part of everyday life.P.S I hope Erdogan gets it this time - at 6.50 to the $ even his most fervent supporters would question his economic “wisdom”...
You'd really like to think this would be a wake up call for the population but the Turkish media, 95% of which Erdoğan contols are already running the "it's Trumps fault" line, at least 50% of the country literally worship the ground Erdoğan walks on so I'm not sure if even this will do it.
Guvernator said:
That's not the main reason no, Erdo?an's slow but steady dismantling of the countries finances is mostly to blame but tax avoidance is a massive factor in many countries in that region including Turkey. I have friends who live there, trust me it's a part of everyday life.
You'd really like to think this would be a wake up call for the population but the Turkish media, 95% of which Erdo?an contols are already running the "it's Trumps fault" line, at least 50% of the country literally worship the ground Erdo?an walks on so I'm not sure if even this will do it.
Tax avoidance has nothing to do with it - it’s my job to know about Turkey - I am a Eurobond Trader and for my sins have been trading Turkish USD and EUR Sovereign/Financial and Corporate Bonds since 2004...You'd really like to think this would be a wake up call for the population but the Turkish media, 95% of which Erdo?an contols are already running the "it's Trumps fault" line, at least 50% of the country literally worship the ground Erdo?an walks on so I'm not sure if even this will do it.
Totally agree on your point about Erdo controlling the media agenda and setting it as a “us and them” battle. As you rightly said, the ignorant fools from Anatolia are lapping it up, while the secular/smart part of the population are too scared to form a meaningful opposition.
In his defence on the Economic front - Turkey has 1mm people entering the workforce every year. Just think of that number for a second. The economy needs to grow by 3-4% per year in order for the unemployment rate to stay flat, let alone go down. Currently it is a touch under 10%...
What is the most pressing issue for the Turks in general when questioned by opinion polls - unemployment...
It is another thing though, that Erdogan has behaved like the unhinged madman Sultan and has no clue on how to manage the above problem properly. His cleptocracy hasn’t helped either. I see a Biiig Mess coming shortly...
Cheburator mk2 said:
It is another thing though, that Erdogan has behaved like the unhinged madman Sultan and has no clue on how to manage the above problem properly. His cleptocracy hasn’t helped either. I see a Biiig Mess coming shortly...
Sadly, I do too. Turkey is very split on Erdogan and it’s almost 50/50 down the middle give or take a few percent. And people are generally not ambivalent about him. They tend to love or despise him. And if you believe that absolute power corrupts absolutely, then I think Sultan Erdogan is just getting started. One thing I know about the Turks though, is that Turkish Culture is very proudly held onto, and if he starts attacking that trying to appeal to the more religious eastern Turkey, it could blow up in his face with the more pro-secular western Turkey and divide the country. We’ll see. I’m not confident that it won’t go bad. Edited by RBH58 on Saturday 11th August 03:04
Nobody ever likes dealing with an unpredictable madman and Turkey certainly seems to be heading for the downward spiral rather quickly. I'm out of touch with the area nowadays - is it Russia who would probably come to their aid ? - if so, what is it that they can do to assist Erdogan ?
amgmcqueen said:
Why was dodgy Dave begging the EU to let Turkey become a member...?
Perhaps if it was a member by now a less hardline Government would be in place. Turkey is/was secular... it has moved significantly under Erdogan. Also the UK has a long standing policy for the EU of looking for a wider membership, believing that the wider you go the less chance there is of ‘ever close (deeper)mintergration happening.
Hence we pushed for all Eastern European countries to join, to help us counterweight French German intergration.
Gargamel said:
Perhaps if it was a member by now a less hardline Government would be in place. Turkey is/was secular... it has moved significantly under Erdogan.
Also the UK has a long standing policy for the EU of looking for a wider membership, believing that the wider you go the less chance there is of ‘ever close (deeper)mintergration happening.
Hence we pushed for all Eastern European countries to join, to help us counterweight French German intergration.
Turkey is still the most secular “muslim country” and if Erdogan pushes a more religious line at the expense of “Turkish Culture” he will find increasing resistance. Also the UK has a long standing policy for the EU of looking for a wider membership, believing that the wider you go the less chance there is of ‘ever close (deeper)mintergration happening.
Hence we pushed for all Eastern European countries to join, to help us counterweight French German intergration.
RBH58 said:
Turkey is still the most secular “muslim country” and if Erdogan pushes a more religious line at the expense of “Turkish Culture” he will find increasing resistance.
He's already pushing - hard.I think he knocked any ideas of any uprisings on the head a couple of years ago. He now has a free hand to do what the hell he likes.
Unfortunately the more modern, well educated population have been cowed by Erdoğan's ruthless tactics. Having a modicum of sense means they are all too aware of the consequences of opposing him now.
On the other hand Erdoğan's supporters being mostly made up of the ill educated have no fear and are blindly militant, therefore although it's 50/50 it's very hard for his opposers to get any traction. How do you reason with a despot and his millions of devouted, militant followers?
On the other hand Erdoğan's supporters being mostly made up of the ill educated have no fear and are blindly militant, therefore although it's 50/50 it's very hard for his opposers to get any traction. How do you reason with a despot and his millions of devouted, militant followers?
Cobnapint said:
He's already pushing - hard.
I think he knocked any ideas of any uprisings on the head a couple of years ago. He now has a free hand to do what the hell he likes.
Agree, but he will split the country if his “religious zeal” starts to impact on “Turkish Culture”. Many Turks will not stand for it. If he over plays this it will backfire on him. I think he knocked any ideas of any uprisings on the head a couple of years ago. He now has a free hand to do what the hell he likes.
RBH58 said:
Cobnapint said:
He's already pushing - hard.
I think he knocked any ideas of any uprisings on the head a couple of years ago. He now has a free hand to do what the hell he likes.
Agree, but he will split the country if his “religious zeal” starts to impact on “Turkish Culture”. Many Turks will not stand for it. If he over plays this it will backfire on him. I think he knocked any ideas of any uprisings on the head a couple of years ago. He now has a free hand to do what the hell he likes.
He can overplay it all day and all night if he likes. He holds all the cards, nobody is going to stand in his way unless they like prison food or worse. He is a nut job dictator protected by internal oppression, fear and strangely enough - NATO.
Funny you say NATO. Turkey are what is called the Framework Nation in the military side of Kabul Airport. Basically this means they run it. They are overdue replacing but as usual for NATO, you need someone to agree to take it on. In the meantime Turkey do it.....well i say do it, some would question how well they do it.
During the recent coup, the 2 Generals in-charge flew to Dubai from Kabul. But due to UAE's own decision, they were deported back to Turkey.
During the recent coup, the 2 Generals in-charge flew to Dubai from Kabul. But due to UAE's own decision, they were deported back to Turkey.
Cobnapint said:
You miss my point. Since the attempted 'coup' you'd have to be pretty brave or daft to declare you're 'not standing for it'.
He can overplay it all day and all night if he likes. He holds all the cards, nobody is going to stand in his way unless they like prison food or worse. He is a nut job dictator protected by internal oppression, fear and strangely enough - NATO.
I agree that he’s going to get worse......but I think attacks on Turkish Culture could be his undoing. He can overplay it all day and all night if he likes. He holds all the cards, nobody is going to stand in his way unless they like prison food or worse. He is a nut job dictator protected by internal oppression, fear and strangely enough - NATO.
Guvernator said:
Unfortunately the more modern, well educated population have been cowed by Erdo?an's ruthless tactics. Having a modicum of sense means they are all too aware of the consequences of opposing him now.
On the other hand Erdo?an's supporters being mostly made up of the ill educated have no fear and are blindly militant, therefore although it's 50/50 it's very hard for his opposers to get any traction. How do you reason with a despot and his millions of devouted, militant followers?
A very bloody military coup, the chances that US and NATO will be prepared to stand by and let it happen have to be increasing, a paper thin excuse is probably all that is required call it an internal matter and to turn a blind eye.On the other hand Erdo?an's supporters being mostly made up of the ill educated have no fear and are blindly militant, therefore although it's 50/50 it's very hard for his opposers to get any traction. How do you reason with a despot and his millions of devouted, militant followers?
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