Meanwhile in Turkey
Discussion
Baby Shark doo doo doo doo said:
BlackLabel said:
The European Parliament also said the decision would end the credibility of democratic elections in Turkey."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48184149
You know things are bad when even the EU think re-running the election is a shameful act.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48184149
You know things are bad when even the EU think re-running the election is a shameful act.
Guvernator said:
Can we not turn this into another Brexit thread please, there are already more than enough threads on that topic. The situation is also not similar.
I disagree. The 'establishment' decided that the public didn't vote the 'right' way so there's going to be another vote to make sure they make the 'proper' decision this time. Erdogan is just copying established EU form.Perhaps those who refuse to recognise the results of a vote whenever it goes a way that they don't like might engage their brains and figure out where that line of thinking might ultimately lead us in terms of democracy?
I understand the parallels but two things.
1) A second referendum hasn't actually been given the go ahead yet has it?
2) As stated before there are plenty of threads to discuss Brexit elsewhere, this thread is about the situation in Turkey but is in danger of being derailed by yet another Brexit point scoring exercise judging by the last few posts.
1) A second referendum hasn't actually been given the go ahead yet has it?
2) As stated before there are plenty of threads to discuss Brexit elsewhere, this thread is about the situation in Turkey but is in danger of being derailed by yet another Brexit point scoring exercise judging by the last few posts.
Guvernator said:
I understand the parallels but two things.
1) A second referendum hasn't actually been given the go ahead yet has it?
2) As stated before there are plenty of threads to discuss Brexit elsewhere, this thread is about the situation in Turkey but is in danger of being derailed by yet another Brexit point scoring exercise judging by the last few posts.
There's massive pressure building for a second referendum from the Remain camp who never accepted that they lost and who were almost calling from day one for another vote, backed by a large number of MPs who never wanted Brexit either and there's history of EU votes being re-run when the establishment doesn't like it, in Ireland for example.1) A second referendum hasn't actually been given the go ahead yet has it?
2) As stated before there are plenty of threads to discuss Brexit elsewhere, this thread is about the situation in Turkey but is in danger of being derailed by yet another Brexit point scoring exercise judging by the last few posts.
People who just decide that democracy doesn't matter when *they* don't get *their* way, forget that by disregarding results they undermine the fabric of democracy and it's likely to come back and bite them in the future.
It's rather amusing to see how the notion of Erdogan re-running an election to get what he wants when the public voted against it is treated compared to the calls for another Brexit vote. It's the exact same idea - nominal democracy doesn't matter when there's someone/group with enough clout that doesn't like the result.
I'm not on either side on Brexit. However the public where asked to vote on something that was basically way beyond most of them to comprehend at the best of times. let alone with the added misinformation that was rife. Add in the governments inability to deliver, well anything really and I'm not surprised at the backlash tbh. Yes perhaps it sets a dangerous precedent if they go back on something that's already been voted on but the real mistake IMO was holding a public referendum on such a complicated issue in the first place.
The situation in Turkey is a lot clearer. There are local elections, you vote for the candidate you'd like to represent you at a local level. The people voted against the incumbent's candidate in Istanbul, he decided he didn't like the result and is abusing his executive power to singlehandedly overturn it . Yes you could argue it's similar in that it's an attempt to circumvent the democratic process but the circumstances are VERY different so using what's happening in Turkey to say see, this is what happens when you don't follow democratic process is therefore a bit disingenuous IMO.
The situation in Turkey is a lot clearer. There are local elections, you vote for the candidate you'd like to represent you at a local level. The people voted against the incumbent's candidate in Istanbul, he decided he didn't like the result and is abusing his executive power to singlehandedly overturn it . Yes you could argue it's similar in that it's an attempt to circumvent the democratic process but the circumstances are VERY different so using what's happening in Turkey to say see, this is what happens when you don't follow democratic process is therefore a bit disingenuous IMO.
Guvernator said:
I'm not on either side on Brexit. However the public where asked to vote on something that was basically way beyond most of them to comprehend at the best of times. let alone with the added misinformation that was rife. Add in the governments inability to deliver, well anything really and I'm not surprised at the backlash tbh. Yes perhaps it sets a dangerous precedent if they go back on something that's already been voted on but the real mistake IMO was holding a public referendum on such a complicated issue in the first place.
The vast majority of people do not have a detailed understanding of how our parliamentary system works and every election ever held will be characterised by misinformation, exaggerations and lies from every side. So why should people be trusted on such a complex issue as who governs our country, but not whether our country is part of the EU?Guvernator said:
I'm not on either side on Brexit. However the public where asked to vote on something that was basically way beyond most of them to comprehend at the best of times. let alone with the added misinformation that was rife. Add in the governments inability to deliver, well anything really and I'm not surprised at the backlash tbh. Yes perhaps it sets a dangerous precedent if they go back on something that's already been voted on but the real mistake IMO was holding a public referendum on such a complicated issue in the first place. .
What's your solution? Govt/Parliament decide? That's what happened. They decided, by a ratio of 10:1, or by 544 to 53, that the matter should be put to referendum. What you are actually describing is "Government should make the decisions, except when I don't like it, then they should do what I would do".
The Govt should not have taken us into the EU.
because the longer you are in it - the more effort is needed to extract yourself from it.
(Which is exactly what the EU want).
There is a world of difference between the EEC and the EU.
The public were clear that they do not want to be in the EU.
Govt must deliver - or democracy is dead.
because the longer you are in it - the more effort is needed to extract yourself from it.
(Which is exactly what the EU want).
There is a world of difference between the EEC and the EU.
The public were clear that they do not want to be in the EU.
Govt must deliver - or democracy is dead.
A Winner Is You said:
Guvernator said:
I'm not on either side on Brexit. However the public where asked to vote on something that was basically way beyond most of them to comprehend at the best of times. let alone with the added misinformation that was rife. Add in the governments inability to deliver, well anything really and I'm not surprised at the backlash tbh. Yes perhaps it sets a dangerous precedent if they go back on something that's already been voted on but the real mistake IMO was holding a public referendum on such a complicated issue in the first place.
The vast majority of people do not have a detailed understanding of how our parliamentary system works and every election ever held will be characterised by misinformation, exaggerations and lies from every side. So why should people be trusted on such a complex issue as who governs our country, but not whether our country is part of the EU?Since then they have been pushing so far past the original remit and forcing governance on countries in their quest for a Euro superstate.
If the '70s vote was truthful about their intentions Britain would have never voted in.
Don't give up your sovereignty because of fear of the unknown.
Guvernator said:
... but the real mistake IMO was holding a public referendum on such a complicated issue in the first place.
... .
Erdogan probably feels similarly about their local elections ... .
It's easy to be dismissive of the parallels as Erdogan is a very obvious tinpot dictator/bogeyman. It's easy to think we're better than that.
But being dismissive of the electorate is what got us where we are in the first place. We have to learn and we have to stop being so blasé about this stuff.
Erdogan seems to be beyond help in this respect and he is very likely to suffer serious consequences as a result (nearly happened a couple of times already. Won't end there). Whilst he is very much more at the pointy end right now, we shouldn't be pointing the finger thinking all is sweetness and light here. Relatively it may well be, but situations can change and manifest themselves in different ways.
Funnily enough Erdogan still has the majority of the popular vote, over 51% (sound familiar?). He's not shy about pointing this out ALL the time either, even making veiled threats and insults to the other 49% who don't agree with him. Perhaps he is right to just ignore the wants of the other 49% and have a re-election, he does have a majority after all?
I'm not a leaver or a remainer, just pointing out that if you want to start drawing parallels, their are more than one.
I'm not a leaver or a remainer, just pointing out that if you want to start drawing parallels, their are more than one.
Guvernator said:
I'm not a leaver or a remainer, just pointing out that if you want to start drawing parallels, their are more than one.
Seemingly a complete 180 from your original position? 
Guvernator said:
Can we not turn this into another Brexit thread please, there are already more than enough threads on that topic. The situation is also not similar.
amusingduck said:
Guvernator said:
I'm not a leaver or a remainer, just pointing out that if you want to start drawing parallels, their are more than one.
Seemingly a complete 180 from your original position? Guvernator said:
Can we not turn this into another Brexit thread please, there are already more than enough threads on that topic. The situation is also not similar.
The Election was re-run and Erdogan's candidate lost by an even larger amount. We'll chalk that one up as a victory for democracy I think.
Erdogan's party has lost the majority of the major cities in the local elections now including Istanbul which was the big one, is his reign finally coming to an end?
Erdogan's party has lost the majority of the major cities in the local elections now including Istanbul which was the big one, is his reign finally coming to an end?
Lol true. the problem this time is that this candidate seems like one of those rare politicians that isn't actually corrupt. Could all be wrong of course and if they try hard enough, they might be able to get some leverage on him, maybe threaten his family or something which has happened to a few others already if rumours are to be believed.
The thing is the other half of Turkey who despise Erdogan have just been waiting for someone to get behind and the new Istanbul Mayor just might be it. I suspect he's grown too quickly and too big in popularity now for Erdgoan to just make him go away like the others.
The thing is the other half of Turkey who despise Erdogan have just been waiting for someone to get behind and the new Istanbul Mayor just might be it. I suspect he's grown too quickly and too big in popularity now for Erdgoan to just make him go away like the others.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff