Israeli

[Funkycoldribena]

Mr_B said:

If the Red Cross stick around.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-284504...

Still no comment on this....

[avinalarf]

Mr Snap said:

There you go, avoiding the substantive points again.

Is it ok to kill children?
Is it ok to destroy homes?
Is it ok to create millions of refugees by means of terror?
Is it ok to put millions of refugees into a small, under-resourced, area and then starve them of basic supplies including water and power?
Is it ok to kill people because they breed quickly?
Is it racist to hold this opinion?

Simple questions and no requirement to seek references.

No.
Nor was it alright in any other of the other countless wars that have been.
Israel is no better or worse than any other country trying to defend it's right to exist.
Re. Your question of racism......
In lots of people's minds the word Israel is synonymous with the word Jew or Jewish.
You might need to be a Jew to understand the fear that this engenders.
Just as you might need to be black to really understand their painful history of prejudice and enslavement.
Or just as you might need to be a Muslim to really understand their fear of Islamaphobia.
One can empathise but that's not really the same thing.
It is very recently that 6 million Jews were exterminated in concentration camps by Nazi Germany.
The horror of that lies in the mind of today's Jewry.
Israel represents the only place that Jews feel they can go to if such horrors again become todays reality.
It is in this context that one might explain, albeit not condone,the actions of the Israelis.

[Mr Snap]

avinalarf said:

No.
Nor was it alright in any other of the other countless wars that have been.
Israel is no better or worse than any other country trying to defend it's right to exist.
Re. Your question of racism......
In lots of people's minds the word Israel is synonymous with the word Jew or Jewish.
You might need to be a Jew to understand the fear that this engenders.
Just as you might need to be black to really understand their painful history of prejudice and enslavement.
Or just as you might need to be a Muslim to really understand their fear of Islamaphobia.
One can empathise but that's not really the same thing.
It is very recently that 6 million Jews were exterminated in concentration camps by Nazi Germany.
The horror of that lies in the mind of today's Jewry.
Israel represents the only place that Jews feel they can go to if such horrors again become todays reality.
It is in this context that one might explain, albeit not condone,the actions of the Israelis.

Thank you for your contribution but I'm perfectly aware of what it means to be a Jew. My father was an anti-zionist Jew and, whilst not technically a Jew myself, I was brought up with a far better understanding of the faith than most people here.

Israel does not represent the only place Jews can go to. This is a pernicious idea, it suggests that Jews are Jews first and not British, or American or whatever. My father was proud to be British and fought in the British Army in WW2 and so was his father who fought in WW1. Neither of them wished to leave the UK and go to Israel - ever, not even on holiday - because they disagreed with zionism. However, they were both practising Jews and attended synagogue throughout their lives.

[Mrr T]

Mr Snap said:

There you go, avoiding the substantive points again.

Is it ok to kill children?
Is it ok to destroy homes?
Is it ok to create millions of refugees by means of terror?
Is it ok to put millions of refugees into a small, under-resourced, area and then starve them of basic supplies including water and power?

Yes to all the above in some circumstances.
It might also be necessary to kill neutral forces/civilian sometimes.

Mr Snap said:

Is it ok to kill people because they breed quickly?

No under any circustances.

Mr Snap said:

Is it racist to hold this opinion?
Simple questions and no requirement to seek references.

No but you might still be racist.

[Mr Snap]

Funkycoldribena said:

Mr_B said:

If the Red Cross stick around.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-284504...

Still no comment on this....

I think if you bother to watch it properly, the reporter supplies your answer. People placed in difficult circumstances make poor decisions.

It's a bit like you in this debate; you try to maintain a difficult position and you grasp at straws to make your point. On this occasion, the straw was choosing this particular clip to support your general argument - it doesn't.

Its also arguing from the specific to the general, which is - generally speaking - poor logic.

[Mr Snap]

Mrr T said:

No but you might still be racist.

Please explain.

[Art0ir]

Guam said:

What is concerning me more right now is the rise in Anti Semitism across Europe and the attacks noted in the press.

It seems to me it would be no different to attacks on Mosques and innocent Muslims, justified by the ISIS attacks on Christians and their Churches in IRAQ.

Peoples Ire needs to be contained to the Nation state involved not those sharing a faith with them imho.

Indeed. A synagogue was attacked in Belfast last week. Thankfully even the radical left organisations have come out to condemn it and called for the arrest of those who did it.

[s1962a]

Art0ir said:

Guam said:

What is concerning me more right now is the rise in Anti Semitism across Europe and the attacks noted in the press.

It seems to me it would be no different to attacks on Mosques and innocent Muslims, justified by the ISIS attacks on Christians and their Churches in IRAQ.

Peoples Ire needs to be contained to the Nation state involved not those sharing a faith with them imho.

Indeed. A synagogue was attacked in Belfast last week. Thankfully even the radical left organisations have come out to condemn it and called for the arrest of those who did it.

This is wrong. Attacking a place of worship or innocent people is a deplorable act.

[FredClogs]

Art0ir said:

Indeed. A synagogue was attacked in Belfast last week. Thankfully even the radical left organisations have come out to condemn it and called for the arrest of those who did it.

Yeah because the radical left (who ever they are) are well known anti semites - are they?

It was bad enough this argument being perpetuated on religious race grounds, don't start pissing in the muddy water by suggesting "left" and "right" have any meaning.

This argument is about law, the observance of it and morality and ethics.

[Mrr T]

Mr Snap said:

Mrr T said:

No but you might still be racist.

Please explain.

You asked a series of questions none of which had anything to do with racism.

So what ever answers some one might give would not define if they you where or where not racist.

[SR7492]

Mr Snap said:

Mrr T said:

Lets do the numbers. The current ground incursion has been going on 16 days. The previous shelling was about 10 days. So in 26 days the Israel's have killed about 700 civilians. Based on Wiki population figures (1.8M) and birth rates (2.4%) in Gaza in the last 26 days 3,000 babies will have been born.

That's the problem with these Jew is they are no good at mass murder.

Please accept this as black humour.

I do however think its a bit hard to suggest Israel is trying to wipe out the population of Gaza and be taken seriously.

No, let's not do numbers, because numbers is reducing real people to mere statistics (and we all know what Stalin said re statistics). Let's talk ethics and morals instead.

Do you think it's acceptable to kill civilians? Do you think it's acceptable to destroy innocent families and devastate property?

Your argument seems to be that it's ok to bump off a few innocent Palestinians because, like buses, there'll be another one along in a moment. Do you have children yourself? Do you reckon it'd be ok if I killed them? There are, after all, lots of people in the UK who would be able to make up for your trivial loss. Your contribution drips with racism and contempt for the innocent.

Nor does the fact that you suddenly see fit to inject humour into the subject of killing innocent people reflect well on you.

In the last few pages, you've tried to nit-pick holes in arguments without making any substantive contribution. You've demanded that people provide citations to their contributions but you eschew doing it yourself. Your contributions are both pompous and patronising and you would appear to have no compunction about making light of the deaths of innocent people. You need to take a good look at yourself.

[avinalarf]

Mr Snap said:

avinalarf said:

No.
Nor was it alright in any other of the other countless wars that have been.
Israel is no better or worse than any other country trying to defend it's right to exist.
Re. Your question of racism......
In lots of people's minds the word Israel is synonymous with the word Jew or Jewish.
You might need to be a Jew to understand the fear that this engenders.
Just as you might need to be black to really understand their painful history of prejudice and enslavement.
Or just as you might need to be a Muslim to really understand their fear of Islamaphobia.
One can empathise but that's not really the same thing.
It is very recently that 6 million Jews were exterminated in concentration camps by Nazi Germany.
The horror of that lies in the mind of today's Jewry.
Israel represents the only place that Jews feel they can go to if such horrors again become todays reality.
It is in this context that one might explain, albeit not condone,the actions of the Israelis.

Thank you for your contribution but I'm perfectly aware of what it means to be a Jew. My father was an anti-zionist Jew and, whilst not technically a Jew myself, I was brought up with a far better understanding of the faith than most people here.

Israel does not represent the only place Jews can go to. This is a pernicious idea, it suggests that Jews are Jews first and not British, or American or whatever. My father was proud to be British and fought in the British Army in WW2 and so was his father who fought in WW1. Neither of them wished to leave the UK and go to Israel - ever, not even on holiday - because they disagreed with zionism. However, they were both practising Jews and attended synagogue throughout their lives.

"Israel does not represent the only place Jews can go to. This is a pernicious idea, it suggests that Jews are Jews first and not British, or American or whatever"

In answer to the above quote....
Many German Jews were very proud of their German heritage,fought for Germany in WW1,and were secular and quite assimilated into German society.
Feck all good it did them.
Jews are happy to assimilate into the country in which they live and feel as patriotic to that country as anyone.
You must not equate the religion of Judaism with being an Israeli,two different entities.
You have many Arab Israelis,don't you know.
You appear to enjoy picking sentences,taking them out of context ,to fit your own agenda.
I have no agenda,just a desire to see a just and peaceful solution to a complex problem.
P.S. For what it's worth my father fought in WW11 ,went in a private,became a Sgt. Major .
Fought in Italy and North Africa from 1939 to 1945.
He regarded England as his homeland,never gave a thought of living in Israel.

[Mr Snap]

avinalarf said:

"Israel does not represent the only place Jews can go to. This is a pernicious idea, it suggests that Jews are Jews first and not British, or American or whatever"

In answer to the above quote....
Many German Jews were very proud of their German heritage,fought for Germany in WW1,and were secular and quite assimilated into German society.
Feck all good it did them.
Jews are happy to assimilate into the country in which they live and feel as patriotic to that country as anyone.
You must not equate the religion of Judaism with being an Israeli,two different entities.
You have many Arab Israelis,don't you know.
You appear to enjoy picking sentences,taking them out of context ,to fit your own agenda.
I have no agenda,just a desire to see a just and peaceful solution to a complex problem.

Sorry, I don't really get where you're coming from.

I would never classify all Israelis as Jews - in using the term "Israeli", I'm referring to the Israeli Government and the general thrust of its policies. Much in the same way a foreigner would refer to us as "Brits" and conflate the actions of our Government. You say I'm nit-picking but I don't think it's reasonable to expect me to use ultra specific terms when everyone else seems able to understand what I'm saying.

The case of German Jews isn't relevant. Despite having to deal with racism at times my family has never felt under threat in Britain.

I'm well aware that there are Israeli Arabs and that some are happy to be Israelis. I have referred to them earlier in this thread.

Nobody has, "no agenda". Read Barthes S/Z, look up "ideology". I also have a desire to see a peaceful solution to a complex problem, I would resent an implication that I don't.

[allnighter]

avinalarf said:

Mr Snap said:

There you go, avoiding the substantive points again.

Is it ok to kill children?
Is it ok to destroy homes?
Is it ok to create millions of refugees by means of terror?
Is it ok to put millions of refugees into a small, under-resourced, area and then starve them of basic supplies including water and power?
Is it ok to kill people because they breed quickly?
Is it racist to hold this opinion?

Simple questions and no requirement to seek references.

No.
Nor was it alright in any other of the other countless wars that have been.
Israel is no better or worse than any other country trying to defend it's right to exist.

No other country is associated with the terminology "Right to Exist" it's exclusive to Israel and it's a carte blanche to do what it wants. It's akin to the South African murdering diplomat's 'Diplomatic immunity!' in Lethal Weapons II, and this terminology needs to be 'revoked'.

avinalarf said:

Re. Your question of racism......
In lots of people's minds the word Israel is synonymous with the word Jew or Jewish.
You might need to be a Jew to understand the fear that this engenders.

How long is this so called fear going to last? So being a Jew is synonymous with a paranoid schizophrenic who might or might not do harm to himself or others?

avinalarf said:

Just as you might need to be black to really understand their painful history of prejudice and enslavement.
Or just as you might need to be a Muslim to really understand their fear of Islamaphobia.

Irrelevant. In a democracy, Blacks do not put legislations and rules in place which will only favour exclusively black people and exclude the rest. Now if Israel wants to be just like any other Arab dictatorship around the area and mirror the prejudice that took/takes place against the minority Jews by sanctioning discrimination against Arabs within Israel, that's fine but let's not indulge in calling Israel the shining example of democracy in the M.E.

avinalarf said:

One can empathise but that's not really the same thing.
It is very recently that 6 million Jews were exterminated in concentration camps by Nazi Germany.
The horror of that lies in the mind of today's Jewry.
Israel represents the only place that Jews feel they can go to if such horrors again become todays reality.
It is in this context that one might explain, albeit not condone,the actions of the Israelis.

Nazi Germany was a long time ago and that argument is wearing thin now, nations have moved on and we are all 'friends' now, and Israel needs to move with the times and stop using 'paranoia','self centredeness' as building blocks for a toxic relationship with others.

Edited by allnighter on Thursday 24th July 11:51

[Funkycoldribena]

Mr Snap said:

I think if you bother to watch it properly, the reporter supplies your answer. People placed in difficult circumstances make poor decisions.

It's a bit like you in this debate; you try to maintain a difficult position and you grasp at straws to make your point. On this occasion, the straw was choosing this particular clip to support your general argument - it doesn't.

Its also arguing from the specific to the general, which is - generally speaking - poor logic.

You really need to take your blinkers off.
The reporter takes a completely biased position.
These are people helping the palestinians and whats their response? Attack them.What hope have the Israelis got when thats how they treat people helping them? You and the reporter say they're traumatised,I dont remember people on 9/11 or 7/7 or Kuwaitis when they were attacked by Iraq attacking ambulances.This is the mentality of a great swathe of the palestinians (not all).

[avinalarf]

Mr Snap and Allnighter.
I give up with you two.
How can a solution be found to this complex problem when you only wish to push your own myopic agendas.
You read my posts and then take points,out of context,
Carry on with your diatribe of hate,I'm out.

Edited by avinalarf on Thursday 24th July 11:59

[allnighter]

Funkycoldribena said:

Mr Snap said:

I think if you bother to watch it properly, the reporter supplies your answer. People placed in difficult circumstances make poor decisions.

It's a bit like you in this debate; you try to maintain a difficult position and you grasp at straws to make your point. On this occasion, the straw was choosing this particular clip to support your general argument - it doesn't.

Its also arguing from the specific to the general, which is - generally speaking - poor logic.

You really need to take your blinkers off.
The reporter takes a completely biased position.
These are people helping the palestinians and whats their response? Attack them.What hope have the Israelis got when thats how they treat people helping them? You and the reporter say they're traumatised,I dont remember people on 9/11 or 7/7 or Kuwaitis when they were attacked by Iraq attacking ambulances.This is the mentality of a great swathe of the palestinians (not all).

How is that worse than settlers stoning little Palestinian children going to school, or any other event that takes place under the dark could of conflict? Do settlers represent the mentality of a 'great swathe of the Israelis (not all)'????

[s1962a]

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rab...

Rabbi said:

“in the case of Gaza, it would be permitted for the defense minister to even order the destruction of all of Gaza so that the South will no longer suffer and to prevent injury to our people, who have been suffering for so long from the enemies surrounding us.”

Does this rabbi have many supporters?

[allnighter]

avinalarf said:

Mr Snap and allnightwear.
I give up with you two.
How can a solution be found to this complex problem when you only wish to push your own myopic agendas.
You read my posts and then take points,out of context,
Carry on with your diatribe of hate,I'm out.

No agenda here I can assure you. I am just as critical of Hamas and neighbouring Arab states as I am of Israel.
No hate either, just love.
You need to work on that chip on your shoulder though, not everyone who disagrees with you is 'out to get you'.

[Funkycoldribena]

allnighter said:

ow is that worse than settlers stoning little Palestinian children going to school, or any other event that takes place under the dark could of conflict? Do settlers represent the mentality of a 'great swathe of the Israelis (not all)'????

What's that got to do with it?The Red Cross are helping them!!
Now it's you that's looking rather stupid.