UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[HonestIago]

Frybywire said:

steveT350C said:

UKIP, working class

Funniest thing I have heard this week.

Let's expand on that shall we? Why will UKIP not do better by the working classes than the coalition currently do or Labour would do?

Or do you consider keeping people uneducated and dependent on the state to be doing right by them?

Labour especially hate the idea that the working classes may become aspirational again or have prospects of bettering themselves. As people become more successful they generally become more conservative in outlook.

This is why state education has been dumbed down and welfare spending exponentially increased since 1997. This is why people on benefits trying to move into work face such massive effective marginal tax rates. Labour want to keep the poor both poor AND thick so that they'll continue to vote for them. ConLib aren't much better tbh.

UKIP want grammar schools so the brightest poor children can gain an excellent education and better themselves, thus perhaps in the long run restoring social mobility to slightly nearer the post-war years.

[MGJohn]

HonestIago said:

Frybywire said:

steveT350C said:

UKIP, working class

Funniest thing I have heard this week.

Let's expand on that shall we? Why will UKIP not do better by the working classes than the coalition currently do or Labour would do?

Or do you consider keeping people uneducated and dependent on the state to be doing right by them?

Labour especially hate the idea that the working classes may become aspirational again or have prospects of bettering themselves. As people become more successful they generally become more conservative in outlook.

This is why state education has been dumbed down and welfare spending exponentially increased since 1997. This is why people on benefits trying to move into work face such massive effective marginal tax rates. Labour want to keep the poor both poor AND thick so that they'll continue to vote for them. ConLib aren't much better tbh.

UKIP want grammar schools so the brightest poor children can gain an excellent education and better themselves, thus perhaps in the long run restoring social mobility to slightly nearer the post-war years.

Cannot fault any of your reasoning there. Based on my conversations with friends, relatives and others, your views are becoming increasingly more widespread.

The Welfare state was created with the best of motives to help those in real need, not to provide a variety of life-style choices which includes state supported serial broodmares. Broodmares incentivised to produce more offspring which equates to more benefits... and possibly a much greater proportion of Labour voters.

Having said those things, I have voted Labour more often than not during my three score years and ten and was pleased to do so. Not now and not recently, no chance of doing that. Bearing in mind I sincerely believe that the current "Two Eds" are definitely not better than none.

Come May 2015, I sincerely hope Nigel and his UKIP Party play some part in this Nation's future decision making.... it needs it!

[Mrr T]

There are lies dammed lies and statistics.

Yazar said:

"If one looks at actual gross weekly earnings for migrants from the Eastern European countries of the EU who are employed in the UK, it is clear that a significant number are unlikely to be making any net contribution to the Treasury, since half of them are earning no more than £300 a week."

Can you direct me to where that graph comes from? Its included in a migration watch column but there is are no links to the original source and a look at the ONS site does not show they collect those statistics.
I also note the graph shows large numbers working below the minimum wage for a 40 hour week. I assume it therefore includes part time work. So if a person has 2 part time jobs they look like a low wage earner even if the hourly rate on both is well above the minimum wage.

Yazar said:

Note: Largest group is couples with kids, add on the singles with kids too. So that is Housing benefit + school costs + child benefit and so on.

Again can you direct me to where that graph comes from? Its included in a migration watch column but there is are no links to the original source and a look at the ONS site does not show they collect those statistics.
Also note the largest group you refer to is only 25%. So 75% of immigrants in the UK do not have children so are not receiving and in work benefits. Of the 25% with children only those on low incomes will get working family tax credit.

Yazar said:

Don't forget that 600,000 Eu migrants in the UK are not working at all (EU's own study)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1...


{/quote]

I will admit this figure took me a back since there are only about 2.4M EU immigrants in the UK. Do note this is EU immigrants not A8 immigrants. Also they are not economically active so unlikely to be getting any UK state support,

Yazar said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5273356.stm

A story from 2006.

[Transmitter Man]

don4l said:

Transmitter Man said:

Yaz,

Good write-up but what about those that are working in various professions but who are evading tax entirely?

Sorry, but due to life/corruption/survival in some countries, this comes in ones D & A at birth.

How can you measure that, one can only guestimate.

Phil

Edited by Transmitter Man on Wednesday 26th November 04:45

Nobody is evading tax entirely. Some people on benefits get all their money given to them, but they still pay tax.

ETA. I suspect that you meant evading income tax.

I did, sorry.

Phil

Edited by don4l on Wednesday 26th November 11:01

[Mrr T]

Scuffers said:

exactly, no different to working in any other non EU country, each country has their rules, but most are pretty easy to understand and comply with.

the very idea that by pulling out, we suddenly find all 1.8M people are thrown out of the EU is just laughable, the spanish economy would instantly die without all the pensioners/ex-pats money just for starters.

Unless you're as pathetic a moron as Cleggieboy, anybody with half a brain realises that.

How dare you compare me to the Cleegg I am truly insulted.

As anyone who has ever tried to work outside the EU will tell you. No matter what the rules unless you are a company transfer or have very specific skills it is virtually impossible.

No one will even bother to interview someone who is subject to a visa requirement to take up the job.

I also never suggested the EU would send back 1.8MM. They have "acquired rights" so any right to work would not be effected. Unless your new MP gets his way and starts sending people back illegally.

However, some of the 1.8M may have problems. For example the health care of 400k UK retirees in the EU are paid by the UK as part of a EU scheme, unless this is continued they would lose the rights to health care. Depending on the individual country a UK worker in the EU may retain the right to work but other benefits such as health care while working, education provisions for there children, benefits if out of work. may all change for the worst.

[Scuffers]

Mrr T said:

How dare you compare me to the Cleegg I am truly insulted.

As anyone who has ever tried to work outside the EU will tell you. No matter what the rules unless you are a company transfer or have very specific skills it is virtually impossible.

come again?

I have worked in Mexico/USA/Australia/UAE/etc. none ar EU countries, never had any problems (and I am a contractor so not employed by an international co.).

seriously, this stuff is not that hard, assuming you have skills they need.

[King Cnut]

Scuffers said:

I have worked in Mexico/USA/Australia/UAE/etc. none ar EU countries, never had any problems

Did you become resident in those countries?

[Scuffers]

King said:

Scuffers said:

I have worked in Mexico/USA/Australia/UAE/etc. none ar EU countries, never had any problems

Did you become resident in those countries?

no.

why would I? was only there to work.

[Yazar]

Mrr T said:

As anyone who has ever tried to work outside the EU will tell you. No matter what the rules unless you are a company transfer or have very specific skills it is virtually impossible.

No one will even bother to interview someone who is subject to a visa requirement to take up the job.

What exactly is wrong with this? People can't possibly think they are 'entitled' to move where-ever they wish, even if they are not needed?

If a person doesn't have the 'very specific skills' then go get them first, why should a foreign country have to have labour is does not need?

[chris watton]

"UK faces £34bn bill for black hole in EU budget

EU accused of financial mismanagement after auditors find huge black hole in the Brussels budget"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/e...

Quite a bargain us being in the EU!

[Esseesse]

chris watton said:

"UK faces £34bn bill for black hole in EU budget

EU accused of financial mismanagement after auditors find huge black hole in the Brussels budget"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/e...

Quite a bargain us being in the EU!

Don't worry, Cameron got them to cut the budget and he'll do it again (and then claim to half the bill using our pre-existing rebate arrangement).

[Yazar]

Mrr T said:

There are lies dammed lies and statistics.

Mrr T said:

Can you direct me to where that graph comes from? Its included in a migration watch column but there is are no links to the original source and a look at the ONS site does not show they collect those statistics.

Migration watch is a credible organisation whose founder has just been made a Lord. Charts will have been created by them from the LabourForce Survey (ONS collects).

ONS collects: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/get-involved/t...
Releases: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/search/index.html?newque...

Mrr T said:

I also note the graph shows large numbers working below the minimum wage for a 40 hour week. I assume it therefore includes part time work. So if a person has 2 part time jobs they look like a low wage earner even if the hourly rate on both is well above the minimum wage.

Assume nothing, its a survey of individual people not jobs.

Mrr T said:

Again can you direct me to where that graph comes from? Its included in a migration watch column but there is are no links to the original source and a look at the ONS site does not show they collect those statistics.

as earlier

Mrr T said:

Also note the largest group you refer to is only 25%. So 75% of immigrants in the UK do not have children so are not receiving and in work benefits. Of the 25% with children only those on low incomes will get working family tax credit.

In work benefits still apply with or without kids, just the amount differs. (They were implemented as means of 'making work pay' for any unemployed person by topping up low wages. Hence the big issue sellers don't have to sell anything, as long as they work sit around for 30 hours a week)

Mrr T said:

I will admit this figure took me a back since there are only about 2.4M EU immigrants in the UK. Do note this is EU immigrants not A8 immigrants. Also they are not economically active so unlikely to be getting any UK state support,

Most figures with regards to the EU tend to do that , all fine on the media headlines but dig deeper and always more to it. I used to be pro-EU and open door migrants were't on my mind until I found out more and more, keep reading and you sir will also be flabbergasted at all the multitudes of lunacy that the federalists are doing 'for the greater goodd'.

Mrr T said:

Also they are not economically active so unlikely to be getting any UK state support,

Anyone in the UK gets state support in one way or another, and never cheap. For example using the NHS, children costing £6K a year per school place and then further education/nursery. Building new infrasturcture to cope. multi-lingual leaflets. Interpreters. Legal and Police (today for example we have 4 more hard working Poles (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30213462)

The cost goes on and on.

Mrr T said:

A story from 2006.

Facts from 2006, rather than a story! Can you tell me why you think this has changed? To put this into perspective, Poland this week announced that only 2,300 polish doctors work in the UK. So what do the rest of the million do then? as I have come across more than 2,300 shop workers/labourers/car washers! http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/188299,Polish-A...

[Yazar]

Esseesse said:

chris watton said:

"UK faces £34bn bill for black hole in EU budget

EU accused of financial mismanagement after auditors find huge black hole in the Brussels budget"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/e...

Quite a bargain us being in the EU!

Don't worry, Cameron got them to cut the budget and he'll do it again (and then claim to half the bill using our pre-existing rebate arrangement).

I better write him a letter, worried he may hurt his hand with all the mock fist banging on lecterns he will do.

[XJ Flyer]

HonestIago said:

Frybywire said:

steveT350C said:

UKIP, working class

Funniest thing I have heard this week.

Let's expand on that shall we? Why will UKIP not do better by the working classes than the coalition currently do or Labour would do?

Or do you consider keeping people uneducated and dependent on the state to be doing right by them?

Labour especially hate the idea that the working classes may become aspirational again or have prospects of bettering themselves.

How would the 'working class' be any better off assuming UKIP are not going to change the present economic system.Which is based on the CBI agenda of minimising wage levels either by importing manufactured goods from cheap labour sweatshop economies.Or importing cheap labour to oversupply the labour market.

IE the CBI will still be calling the shots just as in the case of Labour and the rest.The difference being that socialist solutions are the natural reaction to that CBI agenda and without them 'the working class' would end up like the lowest paid in the poorest parts of the US.

The fact is 'working class aspirations' cost money in the form of decent wages and as things stand the CBI doesn't want to pay those type of wages.Unless UKIP are going to come up with some radical policies,regarding immigration and trade barriers,in favour of domestic industry and the indigenous working class nothing will change.

[King Cnut]

Scuffers said:

King said:

Scuffers said:

I have worked in Mexico/USA/Australia/UAE/etc. none ar EU countries, never had any problems

Did you become resident in those countries?

no.

why would I? was only there to work.

Would there have been a local capable of doing your job?

[XJ Flyer]

Scuffers said:

Mrr T said:

How dare you compare me to the Cleegg I am truly insulted.

As anyone who has ever tried to work outside the EU will tell you. No matter what the rules unless you are a company transfer or have very specific skills it is virtually impossible.

come again?

I have worked in Mexico/USA/Australia/UAE/etc. none ar EU countries, never had any problems (and I am a contractor so not employed by an international co.).

seriously, this stuff is not that hard, assuming you have skills they need.

In which case why is it impossible for a British truck driver to get a work permit for USA or Australia but it is no problem for an east European to get one here in the so called 'free labour market'.UKIP won't make any difference to that situation going by its present stated policy of,if they get in before we leave the EU they can keep their work/residence status.

[Scuffers]

King said:

Would there have been a local capable of doing your job?

obviously not, else I would not have been there.

Let's face it, some of the places I have been for work are not exactly the kind of place you would be there for any other reason.

[Mrr T]

Scuffers said:

come again?

I have worked in Mexico/USA/Australia/UAE/etc. none ar EU countries, never had any problems (and I am a contractor so not employed by an international co.).

seriously, this stuff is not that hard, assuming you have skills they need.

So you have your own company which some times contracts with companies outside the EU. As a result of this you some times carry out the work in a country outside the EU.

That is some what different to getting a local work visa to work as an employee of a company in a none EU country.

[XJ Flyer]

Mrr T said:

Scuffers said:

come again?

I have worked in Mexico/USA/Australia/UAE/etc. none ar EU countries, never had any problems (and I am a contractor so not employed by an international co.).

seriously, this stuff is not that hard, assuming you have skills they need.

So you have your own company which some times contracts with companies outside the EU. As a result of this you some times carry out the work in a country outside the EU.

That is some what different to getting a local work visa to work as an employee of a company in a none EU country.

Which is why I raised the issue of the difference in employment status of foreign truck,or bus,drivers wanting to work here.As opposed to British ones wanting to work in the US,Australia or New Zealand for example.

[Mrr T]

Yazar said:

What exactly is wrong with this? People can't possibly think they are 'entitled' to move where-ever they wish, even if they are not needed?

If a person doesn't have the 'very specific skills' then go get them first, why should a foreign country have to have labour is does not need?

At the moment we have the opportunity to live and work any where in the EU.

I like the fact that I can work in Frankfurt or Paris without getting a visa.

With companies increasing in size and the UK a small country I would expect more of us will expect to have to work else where in the EU so as to increase our knowledge and experience. It can also be a lot of fun.