Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
Ares said:
Kuji said:
Stickyfinger said:
Ares said:
Cyclists don't just 'fall'.
You passing a cyclist to close at 25 or more often 35/45+mph is an issue.
A cyclist will not be undertaking you at 25mph. If filtering through stationary (or near stationary) traffic, as cyclist will typically be riding at less than half that) and is in control of what is happening.
As said....I am out...You passing a cyclist to close at 25 or more often 35/45+mph is an issue.
A cyclist will not be undertaking you at 25mph. If filtering through stationary (or near stationary) traffic, as cyclist will typically be riding at less than half that) and is in control of what is happening.
You guys really need to be more consistent, as I am beginning to believe the people claiming that you just make up new rules as it suits you.
cb1965 said:
It's cited over and over again in these very forums. If people really can't cycle without wobbling and falling off get off the ****Ing road!
There is a whole lot of s
te posted in these very forums, typically from people who are wholly ignorant to the points they are making.Best off speaking to/listening to people who know.
In 100,000km of cycling, I've never just 'fallen off', and haven't done so since I was 5 or 6 years old.
Ares said:
cb1965 said:
It's cited over and over again in these very forums. If people really can't cycle without wobbling and falling off get off the ****Ing road!
There is a whole lot of ste posted in these very forums, typically from people who are wholly ignorant to the points they are making.Best off speaking to/listening to people who know.
In 100,000km of cycling, I've never just 'fallen off', and haven't done so since I was 5 or 6 years old.
Kuji said:
Good manners cost nothing.
However, if they did, the rest of PH might have been able to rejoice in the fact that you were able to spend the money you saved on some entry level common sense instead.
What "money I saved"? And what do you know of my "manners". Is this the 'School of don't do as I do, do as I say'? Because any attempt to "teach me some manners" by being downright rude to me is going to fall on rather deaf ears, I'm afraid. I'm not about to start taking advice on how to be a vegetarian from a butcher either. However, if they did, the rest of PH might have been able to rejoice in the fact that you were able to spend the money you saved on some entry level common sense instead.
Edited by Kuji on Friday 20th October 14:03
Money I saved?
Try this for size. I don't NEED to cycle. I don't NEED to save money. I ride bicycles because, despite the very best efforts by assorted retards out on the roads, I actually ENJOY riding bicycles. Often I ride my bicycle to go nowhere other than back to the very same place I left from, around in a massive loop of up to 150 miles. Just like someone who might take a Porsche or a Caterham "out for a hoon" in fact. Sometimes I seek out really steep hills just to ride up them and down the other side. It's a weird fetish, I'll readily admit, and one which most non-cyclists and even many cyclists just don't "get". But it fills my time between therapy sessions. Maybe if interest rates go up I'll feel the need to work again. Maybe I'll just pedal around the countryside deliberately holding busy working people up on their oh-so-important journeys (joke, by the way, before that gets quoted back at me as a serious comment). Maybe I'm not worried in the slightest about what some small-minded imbecile thinks about how I look in Lycra. I just live my life, you can feel free to go about living yours as you please, without fear of interference from me. Just don't expect to find me doffing my cap to anyone in a (perceived) 'better' or 'more expensive' mode of transport than that which I've chosen. There really isn't a 'pecking order' on the roads based upon what each user feels is their place in said order. Your priority at junctions really is solely based on the layout of the junction, not whether you arrived at the junction in a BMW, a Vauxhall, or on a bicycle.
As for "entry level common sense"? Really? Just what the heck are you blathering on about? You, along with several posters on this thread have taken a dislike to me. I get that, you're entitled to do so. But slinging childish insults around and then sticking you fingers in your ears and shouting "la-la-la-la-la" over any sensible replies says more about your attitudes than it does mine. Questions have been asked, and I've provided answers to them, only to have any hope of a sensible debate slung back at me because the person posing those questions doesn't really want answers, he wants to recruit a mutual backslapping society that agrees with his every utterance. I hope he sends you a nice free gift as an early uptake responder. you deserve each other, and i hope you are happy together. But hey? Show some manners please, and stop shouting down any and all attempts at a sensible debate on this thread. You may well disagree with the way I describe my riding and/or driving, but just laughing and pointing and saying "you're wrong, so there!" isn't a debate. If even one of you had the intelligence to formulate a sensible counter-argument, and suggest an alternative, safer way to go about things, then I'd be willing to listen. But then I'd probably give a reasoned response as to why I disagree and the "la-la-la-la-la" and name calling would start all over again. Trying to debate with you lot is like trying to negotiate safe passage across a field with a herd of water buffalo. I'll let you work that out for yourself...
cb1965 said:
Ares said:
cb1965 said:
It's cited over and over again in these very forums. If people really can't cycle without wobbling and falling off get off the ****Ing road!
There is a whole lot of ste posted in these very forums, typically from people who are wholly ignorant to the points they are making.Best off speaking to/listening to people who know.
In 100,000km of cycling, I've never just 'fallen off', and haven't done so since I was 5 or 6 years old.
As an aside, you'll get further in life by toning down the sanctimonious approach.
Ares said:
cb1965 said:
Ares said:
cb1965 said:
It's cited over and over again in these very forums. If people really can't cycle without wobbling and falling off get off the ****Ing road!
There is a whole lot of ste posted in these very forums, typically from people who are wholly ignorant to the points they are making.Best off speaking to/listening to people who know.
In 100,000km of cycling, I've never just 'fallen off', and haven't done so since I was 5 or 6 years old.
As an aside, you'll get further in life by toning down the sanctimonious approach.
I've never moved so fast in my life!There's plenty of reasons why you should give cyclists a bit of room when passing, this is one of them.
Ares said:
TroubledSoul said:
I agree completely with this point. Why then, is this not considered the case when a cyclist gets themselves crushed by a left turning vehicle? Why is it more often than not assumed to be the driver's fault when the cyclist made that choice to be there?
Just out of interest.
Why and where is it assumed to be the drivers fault? Of the various, sad, deaths on the roads caused by this, how many of the drivers have been prosecuted?Just out of interest.
WinstonWolf said:
Ares said:
cb1965 said:
Ares said:
cb1965 said:
It's cited over and over again in these very forums. If people really can't cycle without wobbling and falling off get off the ****Ing road!
There is a whole lot of ste posted in these very forums, typically from people who are wholly ignorant to the points they are making.Best off speaking to/listening to people who know.
In 100,000km of cycling, I've never just 'fallen off', and haven't done so since I was 5 or 6 years old.
As an aside, you'll get further in life by toning down the sanctimonious approach.
I've never moved so fast in my life!There's plenty of reasons why you should give cyclists a bit of room when passing, this is one of them.
As you say, there are loads of reasons for the 1.5m space - unexpected movement by the cyclist (or the car!) is the primary one.
TroubledSoul said:
Ares said:
TroubledSoul said:
I agree completely with this point. Why then, is this not considered the case when a cyclist gets themselves crushed by a left turning vehicle? Why is it more often than not assumed to be the driver's fault when the cyclist made that choice to be there?
Just out of interest.
Why and where is it assumed to be the drivers fault? Of the various, sad, deaths on the roads caused by this, how many of the drivers have been prosecuted?Just out of interest.
Yes. The driver wasn't arrested. Take out the wildly pro-cyclist and equally wildly anti-cyclist rhetoric on this thread, where is assumed, more often than not, to be the driver's fault?
WinstonWolf said:
Oh I definitely 'just fell off' 
One minute I'm riding along, the next I'm on my arse thinking WTF
Stifling laughter.... One minute I'm riding along, the next I'm on my arse thinking WTF
My point is though, something caused you to lose grip/fall (big sidewind, then into an inconveniently placed rut). Riding through town, cyclists don't just fall off.
Drivers need to be aware that cyclists may, however, suddenly move on the road. Sidewind, avoiding debris/potholes/water/pedestrians/metal grids/etc, giving junctions a wide berth...this is the primary reason for the safe space.
Ares said:
FiF said:
I'm going to introduce a diversion here, but feel it's relevant. Being interested in safety of myself and others, especially the vulnerable, I asked a question on another thread about the positioning of a cyclist I saw regularly as didn't understand why and needed some education as his motives and desires.
Briefly it concerns a road where into the city, not London, there is a wide, usually empty bus lane, cyclists permitted, and the two way traffic in and out is on the remaining carriageway on two, at times quite narrow lanes. This cyclist rides right up against the white line bordering the bus lane. We had discussions about whether it's avoiding grates, side roads, parked cars, pedestrians stepping out, but on face value it appears to be none of those as he still does it where none of these reasons are present. The reason some suggested, which they claimed to have done, is use a supposed pressure wave from the front of an overtaking vehicle to give them a lift by riding that pressure wave. No idea if that is right or not.
Personally it seems daft, when that guy is in that position, even though he is in the bus lane, the gap is too small and so apply restraint and hang back. Maybe someone woukd claim that the cyclist is holding them up, which suppose technically he is, albeit completely inconsequential in my view. But it's possibly back to point, a rule applies until someone decides they don't want it to apply, for all I know the guy is pissed off I don't overtake so he can get a lift.
There is no real aero benefit to getting passed by a bus (pressure wave??). Following a bus, yes, but not from passing one.Briefly it concerns a road where into the city, not London, there is a wide, usually empty bus lane, cyclists permitted, and the two way traffic in and out is on the remaining carriageway on two, at times quite narrow lanes. This cyclist rides right up against the white line bordering the bus lane. We had discussions about whether it's avoiding grates, side roads, parked cars, pedestrians stepping out, but on face value it appears to be none of those as he still does it where none of these reasons are present. The reason some suggested, which they claimed to have done, is use a supposed pressure wave from the front of an overtaking vehicle to give them a lift by riding that pressure wave. No idea if that is right or not.
Personally it seems daft, when that guy is in that position, even though he is in the bus lane, the gap is too small and so apply restraint and hang back. Maybe someone woukd claim that the cyclist is holding them up, which suppose technically he is, albeit completely inconsequential in my view. But it's possibly back to point, a rule applies until someone decides they don't want it to apply, for all I know the guy is pissed off I don't overtake so he can get a lift.
It's most like a cyclist that doesn't realise he/she is allowed in the bus lane, but is trying to keep out of the main carriageway.
If it's as you suggest, not realising allowed in bus lane, then he is more stupid than can imagine, apart from the clear signs on lampposts there are ruddy great white painted cycle logos all down the middle of the lane.
Not seen him for a month or two now, hope it's not as Mave suggested, the rightest man in the graveyard.
So my office is near Ludgate Circus and a pedestrian was killed at the intersection this morning just before 7am. I just have to commend the professionalism and thoroughness of the police and accident responders. At 1pm, the entire block was still cordoned off, and they were still busy photographing absolutely everything. The Van was being loaded onto a transporter - but not driven, with one of those lift style cranes. I guess more forensics. It just amazes me, something that is an "accident" looks to be treated no differently than a serious crime.
FiF said:
I can understand the benefit from drafting, but this supposed lift from a pressure wave seems dubious, even if only not for scientific but simply safety reasons.
If it's as you suggest, not realising allowed in bus lane, then he is more stupid than can imagine, apart from the clear signs on lampposts there are ruddy great white painted cycle logos all down the middle of the lane.
Not seen him for a month or two now, hope it's not as Mave suggested, the rightest man in the graveyard.
But ditto the number of drivers that sit in a queue next to a bus lane that is outside it's hours of operation.....and that includes police. I've been pulled twice for driving in a bus lane until I pointed out it was only in operation at certain hours.If it's as you suggest, not realising allowed in bus lane, then he is more stupid than can imagine, apart from the clear signs on lampposts there are ruddy great white painted cycle logos all down the middle of the lane.
Not seen him for a month or two now, hope it's not as Mave suggested, the rightest man in the graveyard.
Killboy said:
So my office is near Ludgate Circus and a pedestrian was killed at the intersection this morning just before 7am. I just have to commend the professionalism and thoroughness of the police and accident responders. At 1pm, the entire block was still cordoned off, and they were still busy photographing absolutely everything. The Van was being loaded onto a transporter - but not driven, with one of those lift style cranes. I guess more forensics. It just amazes me, something that is an "accident" looks to be treated no differently than a serious crime.
With an insurance rich environment, there is no such thing as an accident anymore Ares said:
But ditto the number of drivers that sit in a queue next to a bus lane that is outside it's hours of operation.....and that includes police. I've been pulled twice for driving in a bus lane until I pointed out it was only in operation at certain hours.
Never been pulled for that but certainly have driven down a bus lane out of hours, gone through the traffic lights specially timed to favour buses, on green obvs, all while a police car sat thumb up rear end in the other lane at a red light. I really really expected to get a pull for that but got away with it. Well got away with nothing, as it was totally legit, but must admit a titter ran round the gallery.Ares said:
WinstonWolf said:
Oh I definitely 'just fell off'
One minute I'm riding along, the next I'm on my arse thinking WTF
Stifling laughter.... One minute I'm riding along, the next I'm on my arse thinking WTF
My point is though, something caused you to lose grip/fall (big sidewind, then into an inconveniently placed rut). Riding through town, cyclists don't just fall off.
Drivers need to be aware that cyclists may, however, suddenly move on the road. Sidewind, avoiding debris/potholes/water/pedestrians/metal grids/etc, giving junctions a wide berth...this is the primary reason for the safe space.
SystemParanoia said:
Digby said:
Still, perhaps we should just forget all about this, go and get stuck in a cycle jam for a while, then get smashed and ride home like so many others do in Copenhagen...
ok, you get the first round in 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJCWyRBiQEA
Perhaps several of us in this thread need to meet up and go out on one of these!
Killboy said:
So my office is near Ludgate Circus and a pedestrian was killed at the intersection this morning just before 7am. I just have to commend the professionalism and thoroughness of the police and accident responders. At 1pm, the entire block was still cordoned off, and they were still busy photographing absolutely everything. The Van was being loaded onto a transporter - but not driven, with one of those lift style cranes. I guess more forensics. It just amazes me, something that is an "accident" looks to be treated no differently than a serious crime.
I remember seeing one of those medical programs in which one of the ambulance crew opened up the victims chest at the side of the road and was trying to massage their heart with his hands.
I think someone mentioning it on PH made me watch it. Maybe it was a cycle accident? (memory foggy)
Agreements and disagreements aside, it's one of the reasons I cringe when I see bad cycling / driving. I just keep thinking of 'that' phone call to their husband, wife or family member. And it's often a call based on nothing more than a momentary lapse of concentration, a simple risk taken or naivety.
Someone got that call today and their entire world collapsed.
RIP.
Digby said:
I remember seeing one of those medical programs in which one of the ambulance crew opened up the victims chest at the side of the road and was trying to massage their heart with his hands.
I think someone mentioning it on PH made me watch it. Maybe it was a cycle accident? (memory foggy)
Agreements and disagreements aside, it's one of the reasons I cringe when I see bad cycling / driving. I just keep thinking of 'that' phone call to their husband, wife or family member. And it's often a call based on nothing more than a momentary lapse of concentration, a simple risk taken or naivety.
Someone got that call today and their entire world collapsed.
RIP.
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