Another cyclist dies in London

[Digby]

heebeegeetee said:

5. It's not a big one.

Not to you, no.

To many other people dealing with it every day it is. You had to deal with it and now do not. It’s that simple.

Fines have been increased to try and stop it. An entire industry is making changes because of it.

Quote all the stats you like, the fact is, if you drive or ride in London, you lose count very quickly of idiots on bikes.

Less are being killed because more people are aware of their stupidity and I would like to see that change.

I agree with what you said when you were surprised riders still ride the way they do.

Or have you changed your mind yet again?

[anonymous-user]

Digby said:

Less are being killed because more people are aware of their stupidity and I would like to see that change.

Want to have another run up at that one? I assume you don't mean that you'd like to see more people being killed. Or that you'd like to see fewer people being aware of some of the more stupid things cyclists do.

[Ares]

Mandat said:

Ares said:

It's not about getting it wrong, it's about not seeing the point being weakly made.

As soon as it was pointed, I said the cyclists actions were not the smartest.

And not, being where they should be, in the protected cyclist box, unlike the wagon who shouldn't have been in the protected box. Doesn't diminish the fact that it wasn't the smartest move by the riders. They were in the wrong, despite being 'right'.

Do you think the wagon driver was in the wrong at all?

Without scoring points over who should have been where, the overall point that is apparently being missed, is that the video clearly show the kind of circumstances that can lead to cyclists being killed under the wheels of left turning hgvs.

Whislt the hgv driver in this instance was aware of the cyclists down his side (and probably in the blind spots) the next driver may not be so dilligent.

The cyclists who blithely put themselves unnecessarily in such blindspot are the next potential victims.

Totally agree. But the onus should not just be on the cyclists to fix/improve that.

[Ares]

TroubledSoul said:

Mandat said:

Ares said:

It's not about getting it wrong, it's about not seeing the point being weakly made.

As soon as it was pointed, I said the cyclists actions were not the smartest.

And not, being where they should be, in the protected cyclist box, unlike the wagon who shouldn't have been in the protected box. Doesn't diminish the fact that it wasn't the smartest move by the riders. They were in the wrong, despite being 'right'.

Do you think the wagon driver was in the wrong at all?

Without scoring points over who should have been where, the overall point that is apparently being missed, is that the video clearly show the kind of circumstances that can lead to cyclists being killed under the wheels of left turning hgvs.

Whislt the hgv driver in this instance was aware of the cyclists down his side (and probably in the blind spots) the next driver may not be so dilligent.

The cyclists who blithely put themselves unnecessarily in such blindspot are the next potential victims.

I said the same. He knows the point being made, he's just refusing to acknowledge it, as seems typical of some posters on this thread.

As soon as I saw the point being made I acknowledged it, and said the cyclists actions were not smart.

What is typical is bending what people have said to suit your own argument (and avoiding answering questions )

[Ares]

cb1965 said:

Ares said:

Do you think the wagon driver was in the wrong at all?

You see this is the point I seem unable to get across to you and others. It is irrelevant whether the wagon driver is in the wrong when viewed in the context of the danger the cyclists have put themselves in. I would not put myself there the same as I won't run close to an HGV on a roundabout in my car. It's called self preservation and that comes before worrying whether the party that can cause me a lot of damage (or worse) is in the wrong or not. The cyclist filming in the video had his head screwed on. At least two others didn't.

Totally disagree. It is not irrelevant that the wagon driver is in the wrong, otherwise where does it stop. Some driver do what they want with the onus on the more vulnerable to make amends for it?

[Ares]

TroubledSoul said:

cb1965 said:

Ares said:

Do you think the wagon driver was in the wrong at all?

You see this is the point I seem unable to get across to you and others. It is irrelevant whether the wagon driver is in the wrong when viewed in the context of the danger the cyclists have put themselves in. I would not put myself there the same as I won't run close to an HGV on a roundabout in my car. It's called self preservation and that comes before worrying whether the party that can cause me a lot of damage (or worse) is in the wrong or not. The cyclist filming in the video had his head screwed on. At least two others didn't.

Exactly. Cyclists do stupid thing. Response; "Yeah but the wagon...."

But that isn't what I said. You're just bending it to fit your rhetoric.

[Ares]

Digby said:

Ares said:

Struggling to see the issue with that one? HGV saw the cyclists in the cycle lane, waited, then set off. Guy with camera (behind truck for what ever reason) turning with the truck - said 'Jesus Christ' but not sure who at?

Well, it's a tiny truck, on a nice clear day for a start. I couldn't care less why the truck is not where it should be, a few of those riders are fantastic idiots.

Maybe add thirty feet to the vehicle and some rain during a miserable Winters evening and perhaps it would strike you as stupid?

Then again, maybe it wouldn't. Perhaps you are like the rider in that clip which was doing the rounds who chastised the HGV driver who was in the correct lane, for clipping him (the rider) due to him being in the wrong lane.

I would suggest if you don't see an issue with the video and situations like those, you are part of the problem and probably encourage others to ride in a similar fashion.

I'll repeat my 'kids stuff' comment again, because I wouldn't ride down there as a child.

OK, wind forward 24hrs, I see the issue the poster was making. The cyclists alongside might have been legally correct but they were common sense wrong. As I've said several times now.

...but with the rest of your post, you are wrong. Kids stuff is more aptly directed at your assumptions and assertions.

[Ares]

Digby said:

Nanook said:

I don't really see an issue with that video at all.

Fortunately, most do not agree with you, including our Government.

I wonder how many more would be dead if everyone rode like that, rather than the cyclists willing to wait?

If the government intervened with every similar foolish bit of driving/riding/walking, there wouldn't be enough civil servants to cope. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. You make it sound akin to driving at 70mph past a school at pick-up time.

[Ares]

The Dangerous Elk said:

So ZERO to do with Cycling safety in London then, or am I missing your point ?

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Tuesday 21st November 18:41

As always, you are missing the point. No one has ever said it is 'ZERO to do with cycling safety in London [sic]

[Ares]

HaydnFisher said:

Years ago when I was very very young I was with my mother and we (she turned me away from it) saw a woman cyclist get crushed under the wheels of a lorry outside of a school. I'm not saying that all cyclists need some sort of training, but they should be able to be held accountable, especially when they jump red lights, etc. It could cause mental trauma for years to anyone who has to deal with such a situation yet most wouldn't think much of it when jumping a light or thinking they could get somewhere quicker by sneaking by a lorry, it's sad

And yet, with deaths between bikes and HGVs in London (I don't know about the rest of the UK), the truck driver has been found guilty more often than not.

Cyclists, of whatever flavour, need education and training, but so do the other road users.

[Ares]

Digby said:

will_ said:

No-one has ever said that cyclists don't do stupid things. But they are not unique in being stupid - other road users are also stupid. As has been said

How many drivers come close to being crushed in London on a daily basis? How many have been crushed over the last few years?

Drivers don't concern me at all. What concerns me are riders such as those in these videos, because there are far too many of them.

How does a driver get crushed??

[Ares]

Digby said:

I think the root cause of pro-cycling prejudice is the ability to say "we want this" and to put fingers in ears and go "lalala" if they don't get what they want; all the time whilst ignoring any negative aspects.

The 'pro-cyclist prejudice' is as minutely small in number as the dangerous cyclists. Majority of cyclists simply do have a 'we want this' mentality at all.

[Ares]

Super_G said:

I see a question for someone about how to make it better? I propose shock horror a cycling test. Need not be a practical one like a motorcycle one with instructor following... more like a hazard perception one. Make it mandatory. Charge £20 for it. Renew it every 5 years. With more and more cyclists on the roads... they are no different to drivers who identify hazards. You don’t need a license to cycle but you can start with the most powerful tool... education.

Unlike the road fund the revenue should go toward upkeep of cycle lanes and signage. We have signs for most things so why not signs like: busy cycle route.

Edited by Super_G on Wednesday 22 November 04:11

The theory is great, but police can't keep on top of the easier to catch the millions of uninsured, disqualified and no-licence drivers, how do they start with people on bikes...that start at age 2?

[simonrockman]

I've not followed all of this thread, but I do commute in London by bike. I do about 50 miles a week. I'm also a fully paid up petrol-head.

Thoughts:
1) Most cars are considerate to cyclists
2) The ones that are not are usually Prius'
3) Buses are evil and drive with a sense of entitlement.
It must be hard to learn to drive a 12 tonne bus, in the narrow confines of London, with a load that shifts as you move, with requesting last minute stops and then behave like you've give your last brain cell to Help the stupid.
4) Cycling in North and South London is very different. I commute from either Brixton or Finchley. In the North everyone gives each other space, but we jump lights. In the South it's competitive pelotons which stop for lights.
In part this is geography, the North is much hillier, so there are fewer cyclists who are more accommodating of other people on bikes.
5) It's great fun to talk to drivers in smart cars and compliment them on the car - they don't expect that of a MAMIL
6) Ditto people on big motorbikes
7) Many of the problems stem from road planning egging on rivalry between the different forms of transport
8) Don't confuse MAMIL with MILF

[Ares]

Nanook said:

Ares said:

Totally agree. But the onus should not just be on the cyclists to fix/improve that.

Who's responsibility is it then, to ensure that cyclists position themselves appropriately to avoid danger?

See the original post for context, and not just narrowed down to "positioning themselves appropriately"....but it is everyones.

[Ares]

Digby said:

heebeegeetee said:

5. It's not a big one.

Not to you, no.

To most people, in the grand scheme of things.

[Ares]

cb1965 said:

Ares said:

cb1965 said:

Ares said:

Do you think the wagon driver was in the wrong at all?

You see this is the point I seem unable to get across to you and others. It is irrelevant whether the wagon driver is in the wrong when viewed in the context of the danger the cyclists have put themselves in. I would not put myself there the same as I won't run close to an HGV on a roundabout in my car. It's called self preservation and that comes before worrying whether the party that can cause me a lot of damage (or worse) is in the wrong or not. The cyclist filming in the video had his head screwed on. At least two others didn't.

Totally disagree. It is not irrelevant that the wagon driver is in the wrong, otherwise where does it stop. Some driver do what they want with the onus on the more vulnerable to make amends for it?

Please read what I wrote... "in the context of the danger the cyclists have put themselves in". If the cyclists get crushed it's kind of irrelevant who is in the right or the wrong... they are still dead. I have a brain in my head and would not put myself there.... it's plain old common sense of unprotected human being versus tonnes of truck.... being right doesn't guarantee survival and my survival is more important than having moral high ground, maybe you are different

It's only irrelevant if you are uninterested in preventing a re-occurence

[TroubledSoul]

Ares said:

But that isn't what I said. You're just bending it to fit your rhetoric.

In what way? You questioned whether someone thought the driver was in the wrong at all as a means of diverting the poster's attention from discussing what the cyclists were doing to the driver instead.

At least that's how it came across.

[Digby]

Just had a thought....it's bikes which are not fit for purpose. HGVs with cameras, lights, trained drivers etc vs tiny little objects, often with no lights, with riders who may only just be able to balance

[Digby]

nickfrog said:

Why would I do that ? I don't use PH as an outlet for my anger and frustration. Again, don't judge me by your own standards.

How can anyone get angry and frustrated by some text on a screen?

I have been accused of all sorts and called various names on PH. I assume as an attempt to rile me. It never works. This entire thread is comedy central to me.

I do think it's a shame certain people can no longer talk about bad / dangerous riding without feeling the need to talk about numerous other bad things in the world, but it makes me laugh due to the desperation on show.

Because I'm happy...sing along...