Can we talk about Sweden for a bit?
Discussion
aizvara said:
My girlfriend has mentioned that general limiting attitude that one should not try to be better than others, but I've experienced something similar in the UK, where any minor sign of success seems to be an affront to some people.
Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a Scandie thing, it is universal, it's just that the Scandies gave it a name.trashbat said:
don't know for sure, but that seems like it would be absolutely nothing in the UK or especially US, such that I almost have to ask myself, 'what's the scandal?'. But then, and almost certainly I'm at odds with the majority PH view, I think it's brilliant that it is a scandal, and I admire a country whose politic and values makes it one.
I agree, especially when you read about the s
t that goes on here! 
aizvara said:
On the last part - the last trip over I noticed beggars for the first time - a Romanian woman outside Hemköp. Not more than I see in Ely, but I've never seen them in rural-ish Sweden before. I felt that she was begging semi-professionally, for want of a better word, rather than being someone who had "fallen through the cracks", but I could be wrong.
My experience of Sweden comes from people of my age, in similar level of job, with similar commitments, and from what I've seen they have it better.
There is a big debate going on about the beggars, the ones saying what you said, that they seem 'semi-professional' are called heartless at best and nazis at worst.My experience of Sweden comes from people of my age, in similar level of job, with similar commitments, and from what I've seen they have it better.
My experience is the exact opposite, comparing my earnings in the UK vs. here and what everything costs, and as this is PH, the last car I bought in the UK, a Volvo C70 cost £1,000, in Sweden the price would have been >4x.
BrabusMog said:
I guess it is more expensive further north, but there seem to be an abundance of low cost apartments and houses in what I have been led to believe are decent areas. You couldn't rent a room in the worst part of London for what lots of people I know rent out nice apartments in Sweden.
I would move to Sweden at the drop of a hat, to be honest, I think people have it much better over there.
Where there are low cost apartments for rent, there are no jobs, and vice versa.I would move to Sweden at the drop of a hat, to be honest, I think people have it much better over there.
Comparing London to any part of Sweden is not really comparing like for like, but there are eye watering costs of living in Stockholm too.
Some prices for the newly produced apartments, a 37sqm one bedroom apartment on Södermalm in Stockholm, 9,500skr a month in rent, a 77sqm four bedroom apartment, 16,000skr a month.
With regards to Jante etc, my view of it all is that whereas it does definitely play a smaller role in society these days, the ghost of Jante is still there. What's happened is that a hundred years of social repression and 20 years of relative liberalisation has created an incredibly anxious generation of social climbers. Years ago I read a story about Japan - the sheer amount of people in Tokyo on similar incomes and... well, quite frankly with similar lives, is what has caused the fashion scene over there to completely flip out due to peoples' desire to differentiate themselves. It's the same over here. There is a ridiculous amount of anxiety about where to live, what clothes to wear, what pillows to have on the couch (Lexington, btw), what car to drive etc. You want people to just KNOW and give you a quiet nod, you want to make a statement, but you don't want to be in their faces about it or appear boastful. Jante, but not. If that makes sense? House in Täby, some fine threads from som obscure shop in 'Milaaaaaan' baby, couple of Lexington trinkets dotted around the gaff and something new and shiny (and un-Volvo) on the drive and you've got it made. Except you want to live in Danderyd.
That is how I see things in the larger cities and people of my generation, whereas of course older generations and smaller places are a lot more entrenched in the more traditional sense of Jante.
Quality of life wise, it's horses for courses. During my stint in the UK I certainly didn't feel worse off. The only thing that irked me was the lack of nature. Or rather, the lack of nature without about half a million other people hoping to catch a nice and relaxing stroll through the woods. Apart from that, taxes are lower, income potential far greater, and should you wish to rent you don't have to stand in a housing queue for the best part of half a century (true story). In Stockholm for instance, people put their kids on the queue as soon as they're born in the hope that by the time they're in their early 20s they'll get a place to rent in a decent suburb. To rent in the actual city you need a.) deeeeeeep pockets to buy a contract on the grey market, b.) a house in an attractive area that you'd willing to exchange for a rental flat or c.) several decades worth of queue time.
Outside of the larger cities it's true that properties are much cheaper and rentals are more of a possibility, but then again jobs are scarcer and incomes lower. Yet energy prices are sky high (long winter, electric-only heating) and distances are bloody long with no public transport to speak of. Food in the sticks is more expensive than in the cities and most certainly more expensive than in the UK. Similarly, cars are nowhere near as cheap.
Regardless, I believe Swedes are the most indebted people in Europe, so although things may appear rosy things can easily and rather hastily change for the worse. To put it mildly.
That is how I see things in the larger cities and people of my generation, whereas of course older generations and smaller places are a lot more entrenched in the more traditional sense of Jante.
Quality of life wise, it's horses for courses. During my stint in the UK I certainly didn't feel worse off. The only thing that irked me was the lack of nature. Or rather, the lack of nature without about half a million other people hoping to catch a nice and relaxing stroll through the woods. Apart from that, taxes are lower, income potential far greater, and should you wish to rent you don't have to stand in a housing queue for the best part of half a century (true story). In Stockholm for instance, people put their kids on the queue as soon as they're born in the hope that by the time they're in their early 20s they'll get a place to rent in a decent suburb. To rent in the actual city you need a.) deeeeeeep pockets to buy a contract on the grey market, b.) a house in an attractive area that you'd willing to exchange for a rental flat or c.) several decades worth of queue time.
Outside of the larger cities it's true that properties are much cheaper and rentals are more of a possibility, but then again jobs are scarcer and incomes lower. Yet energy prices are sky high (long winter, electric-only heating) and distances are bloody long with no public transport to speak of. Food in the sticks is more expensive than in the cities and most certainly more expensive than in the UK. Similarly, cars are nowhere near as cheap.
Regardless, I believe Swedes are the most indebted people in Europe, so although things may appear rosy things can easily and rather hastily change for the worse. To put it mildly.
Edited by Looket on Friday 13th February 13:10
Sweden/Scandinavian countries seem to have some similarities with Asian/Chinese/Japanese culture.
There is an old Chinese proverb:
The nail that stands tallest is the first to be hammered flat.
it's a philosophy very much at odd's with the typical anglosphere celebration of individuality and success.
There is an old Chinese proverb:
The nail that stands tallest is the first to be hammered flat.
it's a philosophy very much at odd's with the typical anglosphere celebration of individuality and success.
Looket said:
Finlandia said:
And if you happen to live in Danderyd, you really would prefer that 10 room apartment in Gamla Stan.
Where does it end?
10 room apt in Gamla Stan > entire floor of a building in Östermalm > house in Djurgården > ????
Anyway, Sweden is a nice enough place, but something needs to change or we will see real trouble in the years to come.
Oh, and as a complete side story, what really irks me with many Swedes is their besserwisser, know-it-all-better-than-anyone-else attitude.
Looket said:
Finlandia said:
And if you happen to live in Danderyd, you really would prefer that 10 room apartment in Gamla Stan.
Where does it end?
10 room apt in Gamla Stan > entire floor of a building in Östermalm > house in Djurgården > ????
Finlandia said:
Drottningholm?
Anyway, Sweden is a nice enough place, but something needs to change or we will see real trouble in the years to come.
Oh, and as a complete side story, what really irks me with many Swedes is their besserwisser, know-it-all-better-than-anyone-else attitude.
Quite. Don't wish to derail the thread too much - we do have some rather serious issues here and the future does look a bit bleak unless something drastic happens. Not sure what that would be though. There is a distinct feeling in the air that the current political and medial landscape is on it's deathbed and that the map is being completely rewritten as we speak - but the question is where do we go from there? The harm has been done, and I for one can't help to wonder whether it's a bit too little a bit too late. Anyway, Sweden is a nice enough place, but something needs to change or we will see real trouble in the years to come.
Oh, and as a complete side story, what really irks me with many Swedes is their besserwisser, know-it-all-better-than-anyone-else attitude.
Brabus - I wish!
Completely unrelated to the main topic, but from a finances POV I did see Sweden have had to go down the QE and interest rate reduction route.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31436657
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31436657
BrabusMog said:
OK, whilst we are slightly on the subject, why do Swedes list apartments as "rooms"? I thought my girlfriend had a 3 bedroom apartment until the first time I arrived and realised that one of the rooms actually meant living room! I know it's not a big deal, I just find it bizarre.
A studio apartment in the UK is a one room apartment in Sweden, a one bedroom is two room and so on, why, I have no idea, I was just as perplexed when I first moved to UK.Looket said:
Quite. Don't wish to derail the thread too much - we do have some rather serious issues here and the future does look a bit bleak unless something drastic happens. Not sure what that would be though. There is a distinct feeling in the air that the current political and medial landscape is on it's deathbed and that the map is being completely rewritten as we speak - but the question is where do we go from there? The harm has been done, and I for one can't help to wonder whether it's a bit too little a bit too late.
Brabus - I wish!
The smaller parties, FP and KD have been talking about new immigration policies, but they have pretty much been trampled down in the racist gutter too, anyone daring to suggest something's wrong with the immigration/integration is silenced. And none of the bigger parties seem interested in going down that route, except for the one party that is very close to being the second biggest in Sweden...Brabus - I wish!
London424 said:
Completely unrelated to the main topic, but from a finances POV I did see Sweden have had to go down the QE and interest rate reduction route.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31436657
Yep, the main interest rate is down to -0.1%, the new minister of finance has repeatedly said that the barn is empty and the cow has done a runner. Make of that what you will.http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31436657
Edited by Finlandia on Friday 13th February 14:59
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