HS2, whats the current status ?

[Swervin_Mervin]

hornetrider said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

Already been discussed. It would be hideously expensive as you'd have to modify a considerable number of bridges and tunnels to accommodate double-decker carriages.

56bn expensive?

No idea but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. And you'd still not have solved the freight capacity issues AFAIU.

[Digga]

MarshPhantom said:

Fair enough, but no one could claim the 02 is a white elelphant. Created a lot of jobs for starters

JOb for those living in and around London and a venue, most useful to those in the same catchment.

You have to see that from the POV of the rest of the UK, it could have been built anywhere and been more accessible to more of the nation. As you already pointed out, rail travel to London is not cheap.

[FredClogs]

NerveAgent said:

FredClogs said:

It's not manchester as such that's prposed for the HS2, it's manchester airport area, which is close to large areas of already quite well priced housing. Which sort of highlights my point, we could end up with people from South Manchester and Cheshire commuting to London rather than into manchester. Stockport, Wilmslow or Altrincham into Mancherster is already a 45 minute commute in rush hour because local infrastructure is so bad (and to be fair I imagine Manchester is better than other cities because the tram isn't half bad at all to many areas)

Altrincham has the tram (25 mins) and wilmslow has a train (20 mins) and they are both very expensive for housing.

This area is the least "well priced" area of the NW and Cheshire.

Wythenshawe is the cheappart of south Manc but I don't think many people will be commuting
from there.

When I said "quite well priced" I meant "quite high priced"... Or more pertinently I meant people from Rochdale, Bury, Bolton and Leigh aren't going to be commuting to London, but as someone has already pointed out people are already commuting to London fairly regular from South Mancs and the demographic reflects that to a degree, I know this as they have started to do it from Preston too on a fairly regular basis, but the question is how will this serve those areas in the long run?

[NerveAgent]

FredClogs said:

When I said "quite well priced" I meant "quite high priced"... Or more pertinently I meant people from Rochdale, Bury, Bolton and Leigh aren't going to be commuting to London, but as someone has already pointed out people are already commuting to London fairly regular from South Mancs and the demographic reflects that to a degree, I know this as they have started to do it from Preston too on a fairly regular basis, but the question is how will this serve those areas in the long run?

Realised what you meant as soon as I hit submit :-D

I'd still say that the travel times to manchester are quite over stated so I'm not sure the effect would be that great.

[Camoradi]

HS2 is a vanity project for politicians to get excited about.

Initially it was all about getting from London to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker, then when people pointed out it was rather expensive for a 20 minute saving, it was all about increasing capacity.. Then a rail industry expert pointed out that longer trains running slowly provides optimum capacity. Fast trains cannot run so frequently, as shown by smart motorways where capacity is best at 50mph.

In 2016 I would have thought targeting the money at superfast broadband and decent mobile coverage for the whole country would yield better benefits.

[Digga]

Camoradi said:

In 2016 I would have thought targeting the money at superfast broadband and decent mobile coverage for the whole country would yield better benefits.

If you work in certain sorts of industry, you could be excused for such ignorance, but there are and always will be, need for people and goods to move about.

If you're working in IT and media, telephone conferences are fine, but if a gas boiler/kitchen/new shop needs fitting, someone's got to actually be there, doing that.

Online shopping still requires physical goods to be transmitted to the customer, etc. etc.

[hornetrider]

Digga said:

If you're working in IT and media, telephone conferences are fine, but if a gas boiler/kitchen/new shop needs fitting, someone's got to actually be there, doing that.

Are you suggesting Manchester plumbers may be lugging a boiler onto HS2 to fix a property in the vicinity of King's Cross?

[MarshPhantom]

Digga said:

MarshPhantom said:

Fair enough, but no one could claim the 02 is a white elelphant. Created a lot of jobs for starters

JOb for those living in and around London and a venue, most useful to those in the same catchment. As you already pointed out, rail travel to London is not cheap.

Nor to any other part of the country, believe it or not.

A single from Brum to London is less than one to Newcastle.

Edited by MarshPhantom on Tuesday 15th November 11:57

[blade runner]

Digga said:

Camoradi said:

In 2016 I would have thought targeting the money at superfast broadband and decent mobile coverage for the whole country would yield better benefits.

If you work in certain sorts of industry, you could be excused for such ignorance, but there are and always will be, need for people and goods to move about.

If you're working in IT and media, telephone conferences are fine, but if a gas boiler/kitchen/new shop needs fitting, someone's got to actually be there, doing that.

Online shopping still requires physical goods to be transmitted to the customer, etc. etc.

I've always though the same as Camoradi on this. A proper superfast broadband network coupled with 4G coverage nationwide would reduce the need for a lot of business related travel on both the roads and trains. This in turn would free up capacity on the existing networks to enable goods to be shipped around and for other essential travel etc. When the future seems to be more and more geared to 'virtual' communications rather than traditional 'physical' communications between people that need to be brought together geographically, I can't see why it makes sense to spend this sort of money on infrastructure that might not be even required by the time it gets built.

[Camoradi]

Digga said:

f you work in certain sorts of industry, you could be excused for such ignorance, but there are and always will be, need for people and goods to move about.

If you're working in IT and media, telephone conferences are fine, but if a gas boiler/kitchen/new shop needs fitting, someone's got to actually be there, doing that.

Online shopping still requires physical goods to be transmitted to the customer, etc. etc.

I agree with you that not everyone can work remotely / online, but enabling people who could work remotely to effectively do so, instead of commuting every day, would free up capacity for people who do have to travel.

Not sure the "ignorance" comment was called for

[Vocal Minority]

MarshPhantom said:

HS2 lovers, can anyone explain why the rest of the country can claim compensation for having their life ruined by HS2 when no one in London can?

MP - I work a lot a lot with affected landowners for HS2 so know my way around the Compensation side of it.

Can you explain in a little more detail what you are referring to, because I am not sure. If you can be more precise hopefully I will be able to demystify it a bit?

[Digga]

Camoradi said:

I agree with you that not everyone can work remotely / online, but enabling people who could work remotely to effectively do so, instead of commuting every day, would free up capacity for people who do have to travel.

Not sure the "ignorance" comment was called for

In my industry, I see it all of the time. If a hole needs digging, it needs to be dug in situ and, equipment has to be moved, there will be mess. A lot of people struggle with actual, practical work and are therefore blind to it - the stereotypical extreme being the apocryphal genius who can't change a light bulb - so in this instance 'ignorance' does not necessarily imply stupidity as much as lack of experience.

A lot of people live in a bubble, oblivious to the logistics than underpin and enable their blissful existence.

[MarshPhantom]

Vocal Minority said:

MarshPhantom said:

HS2 lovers, can anyone explain why the rest of the country can claim compensation for having their life ruined by HS2 when no one in London can?

MP - I work a lot a lot with affected landowners for HS2 so know my way around the Compensation side of it.

Can you explain in a little more detail what you are referring to, because I am not sure. If you can be more precise hopefully I will be able to demystify it a bit?

You can claim compo if your house is within a certain distance from the trainline. The closer it is the more you get.

This is very much not the case anywhere in London.

[arfur]

hornetrider said:

Did I hear on the wireless this morning that the projected journey time from Manchester to London was 1hr 8 mins? Regardless of the rights and wrongs, that's pretty impressive. I can well imagine lots of people working in the City daily 'commuting' from the North.... pushing up house prices

The current travel time for me, door to door, home in Coventry to office in Westminster is 90 mins. A lot of people on the train daily doing the same thing. Not sure house prices change much though as it's 850pcm for train ticket plus a fiver a day on the tube.

[Camoradi]

Digga said:

In my industry, I see it all of the time. If a hole needs digging, it needs to be dug in situ and, equipment has to be moved, there will be mess. A lot of people struggle with actual, practical work and are therefore blind to it - the stereotypical extreme being the apocryphal genius who can't change a light bulb - so in this instance 'ignorance' does not necessarily imply stupidity as much as lack of experience.

A lot of people live in a bubble, oblivious to the logistics than underpin and enable their blissful existence.

Fine. Have a nice day

[ralphrj]

MarshPhantom said:

hornetrider said:

Did I hear on the wireless this morning that the projected journey time from Manchester to London was 1hr 8 mins? Regardless of the rights and wrongs, that's pretty impressive. I can well imagine lots of people working in the City daily 'commuting' from the North.... pushing up house prices

Seems rather unlikely. I thought London - Brum was currently 1hr40 and HS2 was going to knock 20 mins off that.

Birmingham to London is currently 1hr24 on average with a fastest time of 1hr13 (one train per day). HS2 will lower the average journey time to 49mins, 35 mins shorter than today.

[MarshPhantom]

ralphrj said:

MarshPhantom said:

hornetrider said:

Did I hear on the wireless this morning that the projected journey time from Manchester to London was 1hr 8 mins? Regardless of the rights and wrongs, that's pretty impressive. I can well imagine lots of people working in the City daily 'commuting' from the North.... pushing up house prices

Seems rather unlikely. I thought London - Brum was currently 1hr40 and HS2 was going to knock 20 mins off that.

Birmingham to London is currently 1hr24 on average with a fastest time of 1hr13 (one train per day). HS2 will lower the average journey time to 49mins, 35 mins shorter than today.

I assume that's if it leaves Brum and doesn't stop anywhere until it gets London. How often will that happen?

[ralphrj]

MarshPhantom said:

I assume that's if it leaves Brum and doesn't stop anywhere until it gets London. How often will that happen?

I believe that the plan is for 3 trains per hour from Birmingham Curzon Street to London Euston but they will all be stopping at Birmingham Interchange on the way.

[Vocal Minority]

MarshPhantom said:

Vocal Minority said:

MarshPhantom said:

HS2 lovers, can anyone explain why the rest of the country can claim compensation for having their life ruined by HS2 when no one in London can?

MP - I work a lot a lot with affected landowners for HS2 so know my way around the Compensation side of it.

Can you explain in a little more detail what you are referring to, because I am not sure. If you can be more precise hopefully I will be able to demystify it a bit?

You can claim compo if your house is within a certain distance from the trainline. The closer it is the more you get.

This is very much not the case anywhere in London.

You are referring to something called the Rural Protection Zone

This is one of the many compensation schemes that HS2 have made available. It is available for residential properties, farms and commercial properties with a rateable value of under £38,400 - in rural areas. This is a discretionary scheme, so goes above and beyond what the law demands, but only sort of. I think their logic is that in London/Birmingham/Leeds etc, the general back ground noise will be such that a slow moving train will be less of an embuggerance compared to what already is there. However a train at full speed in rural Warwickshire will have a more profound affect. – Its just cheaper to offer it to rural as well.

I can't remember what the payment is, but its for people 120 metres from the centreline of the railway. However, this is a sort of advanced payment really, as it will be taken off any other compensation HS2 offer (the payment itself is up to a certain level, you won’t get bunged more than your property is worth).

It's basically a little tickle up front to quell open rebellion

HOWEVER – those in the city are protected by what we call the compensation code – that is the current melange of various laws and act of parliament and judicial precedents in case law. This is far from perfect, and is being improved slowly over time (though still has a way to go).

So everyone affected by the scheme will be compensated, no matter where they live. Granted the compensation will be slow to materialise, and it varies depending on how you are affected, but everyone affected is entitled to compensation under law.

Though I agree that this law has a long way to go before it is truly fit for purpose (and there are groups working on this all the time) – the basic safety net is there for all.

Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 15th November 14:08

[Blue62]

I know of two businesses that have been in limbo for 4 years or more, they've both been told that their compensation will only be approved when we have Royal assent and at that point they can start to make serious plans for their futures. There is still no definitive commitment yet the government sees fit to continue to drip out project details as though the whole thing is done and dusted.