HS2, whats the current status ?
Discussion
rxe said:
edh said:
If you think a £100bn economic stimulus is a good idea, there are much better ways of doing it rather than wasting it on new trains to funnel more people into London.
UK-wide fibre to every house would be a good start.
Why?UK-wide fibre to every house would be a good start.
I have what I suppose is an average internet connection - about 28 Mbit down, 6 Mbit up. I can skype, videoconference, access code repositories, and watch pr0n in 4K if I really want to. Actually the whole family could watch pr0n in 4K, with different streams according to er, taste. About the only thing I can’t do is performance testing of database heavy applications, but that has more to do with latency than bandwidth.
Why do I need fibre? Most people’s WiFi can’t do a lot more than 50 Mbit anyway. I haven’t thought “gosh I need more internet bandwidth” since about 2004. Note that’s just the house connection, I have 2 phones that aren’t far off in terms of speed.
Yes, there are a small number of locations where this is not true .... but “fibre to every home” is an expensive solution looking for a problem.
a. We won't need 10x this bandwidth in 10-20 years time
or
b. It will be deliverable over copper at any distance from the exchange.
rxe said:
Why do I need fibre? Most people’s WiFi can’t do a lot more than 50 Mbit anyway.
Where on earth did you get that idea from?! Presumably you're talking about 802.11g, which has a maximum throughput of 54Mbps...... and is 15 years old.802.11n is 9 years old, and supports 288/600Mbps.
802.11ac is 5 years old, and supports 346 - 3466Mbps.
Any of the offerings from BT/Virgin since 2011 will comfortably exceed 50Mbps
3 Years and 5 months since starting the thread, has anything happened ?
Other countries seem to just crack on, a roundabout near where I live has been subject to roadworks as long as this thread, why does stuff take so long.
I wasn't expecting it to be finished, maybe some clarity on whether it will happen, but like Brexit, confusion seems the only thing getting built.
Other countries seem to just crack on, a roundabout near where I live has been subject to roadworks as long as this thread, why does stuff take so long.
I wasn't expecting it to be finished, maybe some clarity on whether it will happen, but like Brexit, confusion seems the only thing getting built.
JPJPJP said:
112 people on more than £150,000 and £600 million on consultants in a year, that is some gravy train.I had a look on the HS2 website, and it is a festival of inclusiveness and sustainability. These are fine of course, but a peek at the careers section has a large proportion of roles for Arts Curator, Communications Manager, Community Engagement Manager, Fraud Investigator (clearly getting in there early), Head of Environment, Sustainability Manager etc... Of course there are engineering and building roles, but I suspect the office is a bit like an episode of 2012.
Just for fun, I looked up the WayBackMachine to see what the economic value assessment used to be... In 2013 it is stated at £53B. Now it seems to have magically risen to £103B... in line with the costs. Magic ins't it?
Just for fun, I looked up the WayBackMachine to see what the economic value assessment used to be... In 2013 it is stated at £53B. Now it seems to have magically risen to £103B... in line with the costs. Magic ins't it?
edh said:
I think that's OK if you can tell me that
a. We won't need 10x this bandwidth in 10-20 years time
or
b. It will be deliverable over copper at any distance from the exchange.
I suspect that in 20 years the idea of pumping domestic internet connections through physical cables may seem a little quaint. Have a look at the specs for 5G, and then try and anticipate what 7G might look like.a. We won't need 10x this bandwidth in 10-20 years time
or
b. It will be deliverable over copper at any distance from the exchange.
As to Wi-Fi speed - it all depends on how well the AP is tuned. ‘Out of the box’ most APs struggle to deliver 50 Mbit in a real world use case.
J4CKO said:
3 Years and 5 months since starting the thread, has anything happened ?
Other countries seem to just crack on, a roundabout near where I live has been subject to roadworks as long as this thread, why does stuff take so long.
I wasn't expecting it to be finished, maybe some clarity on whether it will happen, but like Brexit, confusion seems the only thing getting built.
Because - happily - it is very difficult to forcibly make someone sell their land in the United Kingdom. I know people will harp on about the greater good etc etc - but they generally aren't the one's being dispossessed of their property. It's very easy to tell people to take something for the team when it isn't you taking it for the team. Other countries seem to just crack on, a roundabout near where I live has been subject to roadworks as long as this thread, why does stuff take so long.
I wasn't expecting it to be finished, maybe some clarity on whether it will happen, but like Brexit, confusion seems the only thing getting built.
In theory there IS clarity that it will happen. Property is getting bought, they have the powers to build it, the contractors are all doing the detailed design and methodology and spades are even in the ground in Euston.
There is plenty of clarity if people choose to accept it.
rxe said:
Why?
I have what I suppose is an average internet connection - about 28 Mbit down, 6 Mbit up. I can skype, videoconference, access code repositories, and watch pr0n in 4K if I really want to. Actually the whole family could watch pr0n in 4K, with different streams according to er, taste. About the only thing I can’t do is performance testing of database heavy applications, but that has more to do with latency than bandwidth.
Why do I need fibre? Most people’s WiFi can’t do a lot more than 50 Mbit anyway. I haven’t thought “gosh I need more internet bandwidth” since about 2004. Note that’s just the house connection, I have 2 phones that aren’t far off in terms of speed.
Yes, there are a small number of locations where this is not true .... but “fibre to every home” is an expensive solution looking for a problem.
The world is full of dead technical standards because the designer said "That ought to be enough for anybody !". How many SCSI standards have there been . . . serial port standards and memory standards ? Loads and they are never enough because as the CPU develops and can do more so we need to get the data in and out. 4K will become the new streaming standard, in fact does anybody use Netflix without 4k now ? As augmented reality becomes common 4k stream won't be sufficient and handheld devices will need 5G and whatever comes after that. If we don't start building fibre to every home, it will never happen and we will all be poorer for that - financially, culturally and in future ability to take part in the world.I have what I suppose is an average internet connection - about 28 Mbit down, 6 Mbit up. I can skype, videoconference, access code repositories, and watch pr0n in 4K if I really want to. Actually the whole family could watch pr0n in 4K, with different streams according to er, taste. About the only thing I can’t do is performance testing of database heavy applications, but that has more to do with latency than bandwidth.
Why do I need fibre? Most people’s WiFi can’t do a lot more than 50 Mbit anyway. I haven’t thought “gosh I need more internet bandwidth” since about 2004. Note that’s just the house connection, I have 2 phones that aren’t far off in terms of speed.
Yes, there are a small number of locations where this is not true .... but “fibre to every home” is an expensive solution looking for a problem.
The same with cities - we need more capacity for travel but like most people I don't think a train is the way to achieve it. Elon Musk is a bit of a prick but he does make a very good point - there are better ways of moving people than on a technology which is still based on Stevenson's Rocket. It needs new technology not a faster horse.
rxe said:
edh said:
I think that's OK if you can tell me that
a. We won't need 10x this bandwidth in 10-20 years time
or
b. It will be deliverable over copper at any distance from the exchange.
I suspect that in 20 years the idea of pumping domestic internet connections through physical cables may seem a little quaint. Have a look at the specs for 5G, and then try and anticipate what 7G might look like.a. We won't need 10x this bandwidth in 10-20 years time
or
b. It will be deliverable over copper at any distance from the exchange.
As to Wi-Fi speed - it all depends on how well the AP is tuned. ‘Out of the box’ most APs struggle to deliver 50 Mbit in a real world use case.
5G sounds great - and I'm sure it will arrive before HS2. I bet it still won't work on train journeys though
edh said:
You may be right but that's a rather different proposition than "no one needs more bandwidth"
5G sounds great - and I'm sure it will arrive before HS2. I bet it still won't work on train journeys though
I don’t think anyone does need more bandwidth right now, unless you’re in a student house with 12 students watching hi-def pr0n in parallel or some exotic use case. And question is why would we invest 100s of millions of pounds to upgrade perfectly good connections to a standard that will be obsolete in 20 years. It’s not perfect, but it’s good enough - I can’t see how my economic output would be increased by giving me ‘fibre’ internet at home. I suspect most people don’t really have a specification for ‘fibre’ anyway.....5G sounds great - and I'm sure it will arrive before HS2. I bet it still won't work on train journeys though
rxe said:
edh said:
You may be right but that's a rather different proposition than "no one needs more bandwidth"
5G sounds great - and I'm sure it will arrive before HS2. I bet it still won't work on train journeys though
I don’t think anyone does need more bandwidth right now, unless you’re in a student house with 12 students watching hi-def pr0n in parallel or some exotic use case. And question is why would we invest 100s of millions of pounds to upgrade perfectly good connections to a standard that will be obsolete in 20 years. It’s not perfect, but it’s good enough - I can’t see how my economic output would be increased by giving me ‘fibre’ internet at home. I suspect most people don’t really have a specification for ‘fibre’ anyway.....5G sounds great - and I'm sure it will arrive before HS2. I bet it still won't work on train journeys though
Vocal Minority said:
J4CKO said:
3 Years and 5 months since starting the thread, has anything happened ?
Other countries seem to just crack on, a roundabout near where I live has been subject to roadworks as long as this thread, why does stuff take so long.
I wasn't expecting it to be finished, maybe some clarity on whether it will happen, but like Brexit, confusion seems the only thing getting built.
Because - happily - it is very difficult to forcibly make someone sell their land in the United Kingdom. I know people will harp on about the greater good etc etc - but they generally aren't the one's being dispossessed of their property. It's very easy to tell people to take something for the team when it isn't you taking it for the team. Other countries seem to just crack on, a roundabout near where I live has been subject to roadworks as long as this thread, why does stuff take so long.
I wasn't expecting it to be finished, maybe some clarity on whether it will happen, but like Brexit, confusion seems the only thing getting built.
In theory there IS clarity that it will happen. Property is getting bought, they have the powers to build it, the contractors are all doing the detailed design and methodology and spades are even in the ground in Euston.
There is plenty of clarity if people choose to accept it.
It is hard to imagine the speed with which China has rolled out HSR in comparison to this effort here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_C...
At the end of 2016 there was 14,000 miles of HSR in use and the plan for the end of 2030 is to grow that to 18,641 miles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_C...
At the end of 2016 there was 14,000 miles of HSR in use and the plan for the end of 2030 is to grow that to 18,641 miles
JPJPJP said:
It is hard to imagine the speed with which China has rolled out HSR in comparison to this effort here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_C...
At the end of 2016 there was 14,000 miles of HSR in use and the plan for the end of 2030 is to grow that to 18,641 miles
But how much of their HSR in 2030 will be the same HSR that was in use in 2016?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_C...
At the end of 2016 there was 14,000 miles of HSR in use and the plan for the end of 2030 is to grow that to 18,641 miles
J4CKO said:
Vocal Minority said:
J4CKO said:
3 Years and 5 months since starting the thread, has anything happened ?
Other countries seem to just crack on, a roundabout near where I live has been subject to roadworks as long as this thread, why does stuff take so long.
I wasn't expecting it to be finished, maybe some clarity on whether it will happen, but like Brexit, confusion seems the only thing getting built.
Because - happily - it is very difficult to forcibly make someone sell their land in the United Kingdom. I know people will harp on about the greater good etc etc - but they generally aren't the one's being dispossessed of their property. It's very easy to tell people to take something for the team when it isn't you taking it for the team. Other countries seem to just crack on, a roundabout near where I live has been subject to roadworks as long as this thread, why does stuff take so long.
I wasn't expecting it to be finished, maybe some clarity on whether it will happen, but like Brexit, confusion seems the only thing getting built.
In theory there IS clarity that it will happen. Property is getting bought, they have the powers to build it, the contractors are all doing the detailed design and methodology and spades are even in the ground in Euston.
There is plenty of clarity if people choose to accept it.
rxe said:
edh said:
I think that's OK if you can tell me that
a. We won't need 10x this bandwidth in 10-20 years time
or
b. It will be deliverable over copper at any distance from the exchange.
I suspect that in 20 years the idea of pumping domestic internet connections through physical cables may seem a little quaint. Have a look at the specs for 5G, and then try and anticipate what 7G might look like.a. We won't need 10x this bandwidth in 10-20 years time
or
b. It will be deliverable over copper at any distance from the exchange.
As to Wi-Fi speed - it all depends on how well the AP is tuned. ‘Out of the box’ most APs struggle to deliver 50 Mbit in a real world use case.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think you miss my point if NE want to add services to a new town or increase/decrease services they can.A 150mph bus and a purpose built dual carriageway would cost less than HS2 by miles. Personally rather than build HS2 I'd build a dual carriageway funded by tolls where the only rules to enter were:
1: Automous driving only(pretty easy on a motorway designed for that purpose with only other automous cars on it.)
2: No tailpipe emissions
3: Your speed will be 150mph
The last mile into the city centre will be bus lanes which given the money this would save could be grade separated.
Talksteer said:
I think you miss my point if NE want to add services to a new town or increase/decrease services they can.
A 150mph bus and a purpose built dual carriageway would cost less than HS2 by miles. Personally rather than build HS2 I'd build a dual carriageway funded by tolls where the only rules to enter were:
1: Automous driving only(pretty easy on a motorway designed for that purpose with only other automous cars on it.)
2: No tailpipe emissions
3: Your speed will be 150mph
The last mile into the city centre will be bus lanes which given the money this would save could be grade separated.
I'm tempeted to say that by the time HS2 is built, the technology and method of transportation will potentially be out of date, making it a total waste of cash.A 150mph bus and a purpose built dual carriageway would cost less than HS2 by miles. Personally rather than build HS2 I'd build a dual carriageway funded by tolls where the only rules to enter were:
1: Automous driving only(pretty easy on a motorway designed for that purpose with only other automous cars on it.)
2: No tailpipe emissions
3: Your speed will be 150mph
The last mile into the city centre will be bus lanes which given the money this would save could be grade separated.
Talksteer said:
I think you miss my point if NE want to add services to a new town or increase/decrease services they can.
A 150mph bus and a purpose built dual carriageway would cost less than HS2 by miles. Personally rather than build HS2 I'd build a dual carriageway funded by tolls where the only rules to enter were:
1: Automous driving only(pretty easy on a motorway designed for that purpose with only other automous cars on it.)
2: No tailpipe emissions
3: Your speed will be 150mph
The last mile into the city centre will be bus lanes which given the money this would save could be grade separated.
That sounds awfully close to a train.... Except that each carriage will need a driver for the last mile or two. A 150mph bus and a purpose built dual carriageway would cost less than HS2 by miles. Personally rather than build HS2 I'd build a dual carriageway funded by tolls where the only rules to enter were:
1: Automous driving only(pretty easy on a motorway designed for that purpose with only other automous cars on it.)
2: No tailpipe emissions
3: Your speed will be 150mph
The last mile into the city centre will be bus lanes which given the money this would save could be grade separated.
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