Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
Munter said:
Ok but the poor design, has led to the effect of someones mental health bringing down a plane. Why should we not look to design that limits the effect of mental health problems on the safety plane?
Unfortunately no door design will stop a suicidal pilot crashing the aircraft. He/she could make the aircraft unflyable in a couple of seconds regardless of who was in the flightdeck as they have access to all the controls and switches.
It's just that in his case the suicidal pilot decided to make it a bit slower for some reason.
If the captain had managed to open the door, or was even in the flight deck, the co pilot would have simply altered his plan and started pulling levers and pressing buttons to speed up the process.
Unless the presence of another person somehow reduces the likelyhood of suicide for some purely psychological reason.
MartG said:
I suggested that a few pages ago 
An anti-CFID system
Various newspapers now reporting that airlines are moving to make it mandatory that a member of the cabin crew goes into the cockpit if one of the pilots needs to leave it
It wouldn't be difficult for a burly male pilot to over-power a trolley-dolly if he felt so minded. It's probably happened often enough in hotel bedrooms. An anti-CFID systemVarious newspapers now reporting that airlines are moving to make it mandatory that a member of the cabin crew goes into the cockpit if one of the pilots needs to leave it
croyde said:
As tragic as this is, what were the chances of this happening or indeed ever happening again.
See Richardxjr's post above.When you think of all the effort that goes into 'screening' the passenger-side risk, it makes a mockery of the present system that wastes hours of our time on every air passage.
MartG said:
Various newspapers now reporting that airlines are moving to make it mandatory that a member of the cabin crew goes into the cockpit if one of the pilots needs to leave it
I can see the queue of jihadists forming to get on the cabin training programs now. Much easier than putting them through flight school.I mean, the people up front will even open the door and let them in and they will be within reach of a handy axe as well whilst the pilot flying is belted in to their seat with their back to them.
What could go wrong in that scenario...
Still, it makes the SLF in the back feel 'safe'.
el stovey said:
Munter said:
Ok but the poor design, has led to the effect of someones mental health bringing down a plane. Why should we not look to design that limits the effect of mental health problems on the safety plane?
Unfortunately no door design will stop a suicidal pilot crashing the aircraft. He/she could make the aircraft unflyable in a couple of seconds regardless of who was in the flightdeck as they have access to all the controls and switches.
It's just that in his case the suicidal pilot decided to make it a bit slower for some reason.
If the captain had managed to open the door, or was even in the flight deck, the co pilot would have simply altered his plan and started pulling levers and pressing buttons to speed up the process.
Unless the presence of another person somehow reduces the likelyhood of suicide for some purely psychological reason.
Digga said:
ee Richardxjr's post above.
Which actually says nothing except what he "thinks". It doesn't quote actual numbers?I have done a search and found lists of airliner bombings and hijackings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hija...
I found this list of pilots who have intentionally crashed aircraft (it's a substantially shorter list than the two above).
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of...
IMO it's clear that the greater risk still lies outside the cockpit.
Sheepshanks said:
el stovey said:
SpeckledJim said:
So someone who isn't there and doesn't know what's going on decides whether to open the door or not?
That REALLY doesn't solve the problem.
It doesn't really matter if a crew member is there or if another pilot is there. If the controls are in front of you, you can crash the aircraft. That REALLY doesn't solve the problem.
PurpleTurtle said:
Mostly attributed to being made to sh!t into carrier bags in the workplace?
Joking apart, I see (and agree) the point you're making, but I don't think the two professions are in any way comparable in terms of stress levels.
One would imagine that SAS veterans see a lot more issues likely to cause PTSD etc than the average 28yo FO doing city hops.
Averages being a figure of speech of course - none of us is 'average'
Isn't this is a generational problem?Joking apart, I see (and agree) the point you're making, but I don't think the two professions are in any way comparable in terms of stress levels.
One would imagine that SAS veterans see a lot more issues likely to cause PTSD etc than the average 28yo FO doing city hops.
Averages being a figure of speech of course - none of us is 'average'
I was watching forces TV last night for P Company pre-selection, the recruits were in a worse state at the end of a 1.5 mile steeplechase that wouldn't have tested a 90's era army cadet with the usual XFactor tears galore. Compare that with the stoic stood to attention resolve of recruits at the end of the stretcher race during test week in previous generations and you realise young 'uns seem much less mentally resilient than previous generations seemed to be.
All these stories about teenagers from middle-class Redrow houses spending hours on facebook self-harm groups, suicide pacts and claiming their teenage angst makes them bi-polar and i often wonder what happened to that British stoicism that allows 90 year old veterans to stand firm with barely more than teary eyes remembering the slaughter they experienced in WW2.
My friend's father was a BA747 driver in the '80's. He was ex-RAF and had the sort of unflappable demeanour that even if all four engines were on fire he'd have had the courtesy to hold a steady cruise until they finished first service so the first class passengers didn't spill their G&T's. I can't imagine fir a minute he'd ever let personal issues compromise his flying duties.
And that sense of absolute i'll stay and fly the plane while you all jump out of the back duty isn't what's being taught in the Nevada be a airline pilot in 28 days flight schools.
I mean 650 hours! That wouldn't even earn you a seat on the Manchester to Belfast Avro Twin prop.
So i get your point, that selfish act of F the world! Seems to me a product of generation facebook. In our parents era the honourable thing to do was retreat to the study with a glass of whisky and a revolver.
I don't mean to trivialise this, but i had a go on battlefield 3 a while back and was the unwitting victim of our helicopter pilot's ragequit, this seems to share an awful lot of the attributes of a u mad bro? Ragequit! only this time the victims don't get to respawn and play again.
I digress.
Regardless of the horror of his crime, we do need to learn lessons, and we need to work out if this is a cultural problem within the airline industry, an isolated incident based on a series of failures of risk management, or a lack of proper training in conditioning and selecting pilots based on their duty to preserve not take life.
He clearly seems to have bern a high risk case, so it really begs the question why with so many unemployed pilots was he in the seat?
But we are where we are, brushing mental health under the carpet is not an option; that leads to things like Dunblane and events like this.
trashbat said:
his is called flight envelope protection, and exists to some extent, but then if you had unpleasant intentions, you would just sabotage the flight in some other way. Then you might say, well the computers could be designed to prevent that too, which is all well & good until a plane crashes primarily because it ignores a human intervention that might have saved the day.
Mandatory group input is out too - plenty of genuine emergencies when one of the crew was incapacitated.
There is no way out. You're always going to have problems, it's just about reducing them to the lowest probability.
Good question and reply. I was going to ask the same. Mandatory group input is out too - plenty of genuine emergencies when one of the crew was incapacitated.
There is no way out. You're always going to have problems, it's just about reducing them to the lowest probability.
One other; can the pilot dump all the fuel so even if an automated safety protocol kicked in, it would be pointless?
Moonhawk said:
Digga said:
ee Richardxjr's post above.
Which actually says nothing except what he "thinks". It doesn't quote actual numbers?I have done a search and found lists of airliner bombings and hijackings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hija...
I found this list of pilots who have intentionally crashed aircraft (it's a substantially shorter list than the two above).
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of...
IMO it's clear that the greater risk still lies outside the cockpit.
At the end of the day uou can't mitigate 100% against a human going postal anywhere.
LittleEnus said:
el stovey said:
Perhaps you ought to go and "add perspective" somewhere else?
Your contribution to this thread has been minimal to say the least.
Ok no more on this. If I offended you I'm sorry. Let's be friends ok? But my point does stand, we will agree to disagreeYour contribution to this thread has been minimal to say the least.
LittleEnus said:
Mermaid said:
& bus drivers too perform a highly responsible task but the risks/skills/attributes are rather different.My dad was a pilot all his life for the RAF and then Laker's, then SIA. It was his statement.
So many people regard pilots as if it were the 1950's still- oh he's a pilot. So what? imo its akin to tube/ train/ bus/coach/HGV/ forklift drivers. Albeit with varying levels of training required.
t.As plenty of mentioned this tragic incident cannot suddenly become a knee jerk reaction to try and fix it. The Pilot seemed to be suffering from mental health issues and decided to crash the plane. No changes to flight doors, locks would have prevented it. Statistics show that this is very few and fair between compared to the number of flights taken per day.
If anything we need to look at the industry and potentially put steps in place to try and identify stress and mental health issues sooner.
The security is fine on planes. The step of making sure if the Captain or First Officer leaves for any reason that a senior member of the flight crew steps in is an excellent step and already happening in the US. Although it wont stop things 100% but certainly provides more options to prevent it from happening.
If anything we need to look at the industry and potentially put steps in place to try and identify stress and mental health issues sooner.
The security is fine on planes. The step of making sure if the Captain or First Officer leaves for any reason that a senior member of the flight crew steps in is an excellent step and already happening in the US. Although it wont stop things 100% but certainly provides more options to prevent it from happening.
Challo said:
No changes to flight doors, locks would have prevented it. Statistics show that this is very few and fair between compared to the number of flights taken per day.
A locking system/protocol that allows the most senior officer on the aircraft back on to the flight deck would have prevented it happening in all likelihood. richardxjr said:
Perhaps I should have said vs. terrorists who have gained entry to the cockpit and crashed the plane themselves.
At the end of the day uou can't mitigate 100% against a human going postal anywhere.
That's true, but if it exposes a achilles heel in the idea of the fortress cockpit theory then all the billions spent on passenger security screening are rendered useless when a group of terrorists or Anders Brevik types realise that if they stay off the radar and pass crew training they can get control of the plane by either getting a job in the cockpit or as a cabin crew member. At the end of the day uou can't mitigate 100% against a human going postal anywhere.
A terrorist leader famously said they didn't need their own CIA, they got all the intelligence they needed from the western media who've now kindly pointed out to world and dog all the security protocols for locking doors, and the ideal opportunity to hijack the plane is when the Captain needs to take a wizz.
I agree kneejerk reactions don't work, but there does need to be some clear thought into if there is a problem that evildoers could exploit otherwise it's all for naught.
My 2 Cents.
This is an absolute tradegy for all concerned and will be a zeigeist moment for the airline industry, much like 9/11. I'm not really qualified to say what these changes will be so I'll leave that to those who are. I hope it will also be a wake up call to employers and wider society that mental ilness is hiding in plain sight and needs a much more grown up and considered debate than we currently have.
Sadly, judging by some of the comments on here and in sections of the media we still have a long way to go.
This is an absolute tradegy for all concerned and will be a zeigeist moment for the airline industry, much like 9/11. I'm not really qualified to say what these changes will be so I'll leave that to those who are. I hope it will also be a wake up call to employers and wider society that mental ilness is hiding in plain sight and needs a much more grown up and considered debate than we currently have.
Sadly, judging by some of the comments on here and in sections of the media we still have a long way to go.
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