Irish vote of gay marriage

[Eric Mc]

4x4Tyke said:

Health is a devolved matter, civil/human rights are not.

It is partly because of a United Nations accusation of Human Rights Breaches that the Irish Referendum was held.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Can I ask where the antis stand on the morning after pill. That's technically an abortion, is it not? Is it ok to abort a clump of cells at 12/24 hours but not at 6 or 8 weeks? If so, why?

I also read somewhere that for couples not using contraception who want to conceive, sperm nearly always meets egg, but in 75% of cases doesn't implant, thus the embryo is just flushed away at the next menstrual cycle. So 3 out of 4 periods of women trying to conceive are technically early miscarriages. OK, it's a natural process, but no apparent concern for the millions of unborn babies. Is that because "god did it"?

[Eric Mc]

I think the mods might want to amend this thread as we are having an extensive discussion on abortion in a thread with a title about gay marriage.

The two subjects are pretty disconnected in so many ways.

[4x4Tyke]

Eric Mc said:

I think the mods might want to amend this thread as we are having an extensive discussion on abortion in a thread with a title about gay marriage.

The two subjects are pretty disconnected in so many ways.

Agree, but Derek started it, so think it's up to him to request it.

[Spanna]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Can I ask where the antis stand on the morning after pill. That's technically an abortion, is it not? Is it ok to abort a clump of cells at 12/24 hours but not at 6 or 8 weeks? If so, why?

I also read somewhere that for couples not using contraception who want to conceive, sperm nearly always meets egg, but in 75% of cases doesn't implant, thus the embryo is just flushed away at the next menstrual cycle. So 3 out of 4 periods of women trying to conceive are technically early miscarriages. OK, it's a natural process, but no apparent concern for the millions of unborn babies. Is that because "god did it"?

I’m not an anti or religious in any way. I see the morning after pill as contraception.

This discussion always leads to at what point does the clump of cells become a baby, a baby that is a human life and should have rights of its own. I’ve seen debates where both extremes are held, moment of conception vs until the baby is born and can breathe on its own.

I’m for abortion to be legal. I’m uncomfortable with late term abortions. Just to be clear.

[Halb]

Spann said:

This discussion always leads to at what point does the clump of cells become a baby, a baby that is a human life and should have rights of its own. I’ve seen debates where both extremes are held, moment of conception vs until the baby is born and can breathe on its own.

I keep wondering that.
Checking the UK page,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Unit...
"The C v S case in 1987 reconfirmed that at 19–22 weeks a foetus was not capable of being born alive." Which seems reasonable. I guess beyond that it's a more case to case thing.

[Robertj21a]

Kawasicki said:

when you go the other direction on the same road you end up aborting babies at a very late stage due to abnormalities like cleft palate

This isn't about aborting at a late stage, it's about women having the right to control their bodies - and long overdue.
If people are so concerned about when life is created, they'll find there are millions of children out there in undeveloped countries needing help. Perhaps they should consider adopting some of them.
I really don't feel there is any need to encourage any more over population.

[Kawasicki]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Can I ask where the antis stand on the morning after pill. That's technically an abortion, is it not? Is it ok to abort a clump of cells at 12/24 hours but not at 6 or 8 weeks? If so, why?

I also read somewhere that for couples not using contraception who want to conceive, sperm nearly always meets egg, but in 75% of cases doesn't implant, thus the embryo is just flushed away at the next menstrual cycle. So 3 out of 4 periods of women trying to conceive are technically early miscarriages. OK, it's a natural process, but no apparent concern for the millions of unborn babies. Is that because "god did it"?

I don't see it as a black or white issue. I am ok with the morning after pill, I am not ok with some late term abortions (cleft palate example). I also think that the vote to allowed unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks is the thin end of a very big wedge.

I don't believe in God, so I don't think he/she does anything.

[MC Bodge]

Robertj21a said:

This isn't about aborting at a late stage, it's about women having the right to control their bodies - and long overdue.
If people are so concerned about when life is created, they'll find there are millions of children out there in undeveloped countries needing help. Perhaps they should consider adopting some of them.
I really don't feel there is any need to encourage any more over population.

That is another issue, but it strikes me that the religious view might well (in a suspiciously human way, once again) relate to increasing the population in the dim and distant past, when it was seen as a good thing to have massive families to maximise survivors and to increase the number of farm hands/fighters.

[Halb]

Kawasicki said:

I don't see it as a black or white issue. I am ok with the morning after pill, I am not ok with some late term abortions (cleft palate example). I also think that the vote to allowed unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks is the thin end of a very big wedge.

So long as that wedge remains stationary, it's a nice equilibrium?

[Kawasicki]

Robertj21a said:

Kawasicki said:

when you go the other direction on the same road you end up aborting babies at a very late stage due to abnormalities like cleft palate

This isn't about aborting at a late stage, it's about women having the right to control their bodies - and long overdue.
If people are so concerned about when life is created, they'll find there are millions of children out there in undeveloped countries needing help. Perhaps they should consider adopting some of them.
I really don't feel there is any need to encourage any more over population.

The baby is not the woman's body.

[MC Bodge]

Kawasicki said:

I also think that the vote to allowed unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks is the thin end of a very big wedge.

You are entitled to think that.

[Kawasicki]

Halb said:

Kawasicki said:

I don't see it as a black or white issue. I am ok with the morning after pill, I am not ok with some late term abortions (cleft palate example). I also think that the vote to allowed unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks is the thin end of a very big wedge.

So long as that wedge remains stationary, it's a nice equilibrium?

It's already too late in the UK, Ireland will follow.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/98457...

[anonymous-user]

Kawasicki said:

The baby is not the woman's body.

When does the collection of cells become a human?

[Cold]

Kawasicki said:

The baby is not the woman's body.

There is no baby.

[Kawasicki]

desolate said:

Kawasicki said:

The baby is not the woman's body.

When does the collection of cells become a human?

Sometime between conception and birth...

[Eric Mc]

Kawasicki said:

Sometime between conception and birth...

Kawasicki - you are entitled to your views on abortion. You are not entitled to impose those views on others.

It's as simple as that.

Ireland is a perfect example of what a country is like when people who share your views (the clergy, conservative politicians etc) had the upper hand. Not any longer.

Many people in the UK think that, in earlier decades, emigration from Ireland was largely an economic decision. I can assure you that economics was only part of the equation. Escaping religious oppression and looking for freedom to think was also a factor.

[Kawasicki]

Eric Mc said:

Kawasicki said:

Sometime between conception and birth...

Kawasicki - you are entitled to your views on abortion. You are not entitled to impose those views on others.

It's as simple as that.

Ireland is a perfect example of what a country is like when people who share your views (the clergy, conservative politicians etc) had the upper hand. Not any longer.

Many people in the UK think that, in earlier decades, emigration from Ireland was largely an economic decision. I can assure you that economics was only part of the equation. Escaping religious oppression and looking for freedom to think was also a factor.

I don't intend to impose my views of abortion on others. Religious oppression and restricted thought is not something I noticed growing up in Ireland, though I have no doubt been influenced in some way by Irish cultural norms.

[Kawasicki]

Cold said:

Kawasicki said:

The baby is not the woman's body.

There is no baby.

In that case an abortion is not required

[anonymous-user]

Kawasicki said:

Sometime between conception and birth...

So all the talk of babies is not helpful.

By all means question the deadlines and keep them under scrutiny but these aren't unborn babies any more than the one I am going to make with Beyonce is.