Discussion
Smollet said:
Trevatanus said:
A friend just floated an interesting theory.
Chilcott Enquiry is due out in the next couple of weeks.
Corbyn has said that he would push for Blair to be tried for war crimes.
Blair has pushed in the background to get rid of Corbyn before he can do so?
Or should I just my tin foil hat on and go sit in the cupboard?
Corbyn loathes Blair with a vengeance so nothing would suprise me Chilcott Enquiry is due out in the next couple of weeks.
Corbyn has said that he would push for Blair to be tried for war crimes.
Blair has pushed in the background to get rid of Corbyn before he can do so?
Or should I just my tin foil hat on and go sit in the cupboard?
andy-xr said:
It kind of is - much as Corbyn wants to reinvent politics, it's a game that needs good strategy and strong tactics, especially infront of the house.
Michael Howard and William Hague were the masters of showmanship and regularly humiliated Blair at PMQs........ didn't get them very far did it. Ed Miliband also regularly did well at PMQs, had some good ideas but the press never moved beyond Red Ed and bacon sandwich gate. Clearly Jeremy isn't a great leader but given the choice between him and a plastic Blairite clone it is not hard to see why Labour members have voted for him. He is honest, principled and for people who care to look past the style the substance of what he is saying is often spot on. I think that is part of the reason he has faced such vicious attacks. The PLP only have themselves to blame for this situation, for years they ignored their core voters and did f
k all to help Mr Average Joe as they were more interested in starting wars, claiming expenses and securing retirement jobs in the Lords or EU. What Labour really need now is a principled person who also has leadership potential. Unfortunately those are very few on the ground, partly because in order to climb the greasy pole in politics one generally has to be an A grade w
ker.The Conservatives are in a similar position really. IMO David Davis is probably the closest thing the Tories have to a thoughtful, honest and principled MP, but they won't choose him, it will be bulls
tter Boris because of his personality and perceived 'electability'. Edited by VolvoT5 on Wednesday 29th June 15:00
JagLover said:
berty37 said:
When I hear this 'middle ground careerist' talk what is wrong with that? Whats the point in going into politics if all you do is stick to an outdated set of principles that no one will vote for? .
Nothing wrong with being centre-left, everything wrong with having no principles and saying anything to get elected.The choice shouldn't be between Blair mark 2 and a "real" person from the hard left. Whatever happened to Labour leaders who were trying to improve the lot of the average working man?
So you dont think that the minimum wage for a start did not help 'the average working man'?
these Labour leaders you talk about apart from Clement Attlee who got in just after WW2, who are they and did they manage to get into power and actually do that?
SeeFive said:
The Don of Croy said:
Pat Glass (no, me neither) has also resigned.
At what stage does someone nominate Stephen Kinnock as the inevitable saviour (D Miliband being otherwise engaged)?
I hadn't heard of her either. No surprise as she was only appointed to her post on Monday in his reshuffle.At what stage does someone nominate Stephen Kinnock as the inevitable saviour (D Miliband being otherwise engaged)?
Not content with spilling her prejudice and disdain for the electorate all over the referendum campaign, she's now making a tit of herself over this.
Embarrassing.
VolvoT5 said:
andy-xr said:
It kind of is - much as Corbyn wants to reinvent politics, it's a game that needs good strategy and strong tactics, especially infront of the house.
Michael Howard and William Hague were the masters of showmanship and regularly humiliated Blair at PMQs........ didn't get them very far did it. Ed Miliband also regularly did well at PMQs, had some good ideas but the press never moved beyond Red Ed and bacon sandwich gate. Clearly Jeremy isn't a great leader but given the choice between him and a plastic Blairite clone it is not hard to see why Labour members have voted for him. He is honest, principled and for people who care to look past the style the substance of what he is saying is often spot on. I think that is part of the reason he has faced such vicious attacks. The PLP only have themselves to blame for this situation, for years they ignored their core voters and did f
k all to help Mr Average Joe as they were more interested in starting wars, claiming expenses and securing retirement jobs in the Lords or EU. What Labour really need now is a principled person who also has leadership potential. Unfortunately those are very few on the ground, partly because in order to climb the greasy pole in politics one generally has to be an A grade w
ker.The Conservatives are in a similar position really. IMO David Davis is probably the closest thing the Tories have to a thoughtful, honest and principled MP, but they won't choose him, it will be bulls
tter Boris because of his personality and perceived 'electability'. Edited by VolvoT5 on Wednesday 29th June 15:00
Trevatanus said:
A friend just floated an interesting theory.
Chilcott Enquiry is due out in the next couple of weeks.
Corbyn has said that he would push for Blair to be tried for war crimes.
Blair has pushed in the background to get rid of Corbyn before he can do so?
Or should I just my tin foil hat on and go sit in the cupboard?
I don't think that the imminent publication is behind attempts to get rid of Corbyn but I think it is one of the reasons Corbyn is refusing to go.Chilcott Enquiry is due out in the next couple of weeks.
Corbyn has said that he would push for Blair to be tried for war crimes.
Blair has pushed in the background to get rid of Corbyn before he can do so?
Or should I just my tin foil hat on and go sit in the cupboard?
berty37 said:
So you dont think that the minimum wage for a start did not help 'the average working man'?
Tax credits when they came in merely subsidised lifestyle choices and I remember the secretary of a working man's club (a client) complaining some of the cleaners were now paid more than him when they were introduced.
If you worked in the public sector, or were a single parent working the required 16 hours a week necessary to qualify for in work benefits, the "New Labour" years were great.
From housing, to energy costs to deindustrialisation to regulation of financial markets the picture is very different for a large chunk of working people.
[quote=VolvoT5]
Clearly Jeremy isn't a great leader but given the choice between him and a plastic Blairite clone it is not hard to see why Labour members have voted for him. He is honest, principled and for people who care to look past the style the substance of what he is saying is often spot on. I think that is part of the reason he has faced such vicious attacks. The PLP only have themselves to blame for this situation, for years they ignored their core voters and did fk all to help Mr Average Joe as they were more interested in starting wars, claiming expenses and securing retirement jobs in the Lords or EU.
Sorry that is a load of old bks. If that is true why did seemingly the core old traditional Labour voter that apparently Jeremy attracts ditch him and his half-arsed in campaign especially in the North East - Labour's old traditional heartland and go with leave - Farage himself said they were the voters they were going after. Corbyn has been a total Euro sceptic for years so he definitely isnt principled as you like to call him otherwise he would of grown a pair and gone with the leave campaign in the first place. He knew that because of certain workers rights put in place by Europe and could not be reversed by a tory govt while we were still in Europe he went about it in a mealy mouthed pathetic fashion. Putting the centre or centre left faction of the Labour party aside, Corbymnhas been disloyal to every labour leader and now his chickens have come home to roost.
Clearly Jeremy isn't a great leader but given the choice between him and a plastic Blairite clone it is not hard to see why Labour members have voted for him. He is honest, principled and for people who care to look past the style the substance of what he is saying is often spot on. I think that is part of the reason he has faced such vicious attacks. The PLP only have themselves to blame for this situation, for years they ignored their core voters and did f
k all to help Mr Average Joe as they were more interested in starting wars, claiming expenses and securing retirement jobs in the Lords or EU. Sorry that is a load of old b
ks. If that is true why did seemingly the core old traditional Labour voter that apparently Jeremy attracts ditch him and his half-arsed in campaign especially in the North East - Labour's old traditional heartland and go with leave - Farage himself said they were the voters they were going after. Corbyn has been a total Euro sceptic for years so he definitely isnt principled as you like to call him otherwise he would of grown a pair and gone with the leave campaign in the first place. He knew that because of certain workers rights put in place by Europe and could not be reversed by a tory govt while we were still in Europe he went about it in a mealy mouthed pathetic fashion. Putting the centre or centre left faction of the Labour party aside, Corbymnhas been disloyal to every labour leader and now his chickens have come home to roost. hornet said:
Curious situation really. The MPs in the PLP didn't magically materialise out of thin air, they won seats in the General Election, presumably through the votes of Labour members and supporters. Does that suggest they weren't the same members and supportes who voted for Corbyn, in which case their voter base has fractured? I can sort of see his point regarding a leadership challenge being undemocratic, but at the same time, those calling for him to step down were elected by their constituents, so they could likewise claim to have a mandate. Possibly greater, as they went to the country, not just existing support.
Were I Tim Farron, I'd be making serious below the radar overtures to as many disaffected PLP members as I possibly could. I know they've said they'll run on a pro-EU ticket, and whilst that's unlikely to succeed, they (and the SNP, Greens, Plaid, even disgruntled Tories) could form a pretty serious opposition block, which is what we need during what's likely to be prolonged and doubtless often bitter negotiations, assuming of course Article 50 ever gets triggered. I can't see how Corbyn or Watson have any hope of being a moderating force?
It's yet another example of the 'establishment' ignoring the views of the people at the bottom, who they supposedly represent.Were I Tim Farron, I'd be making serious below the radar overtures to as many disaffected PLP members as I possibly could. I know they've said they'll run on a pro-EU ticket, and whilst that's unlikely to succeed, they (and the SNP, Greens, Plaid, even disgruntled Tories) could form a pretty serious opposition block, which is what we need during what's likely to be prolonged and doubtless often bitter negotiations, assuming of course Article 50 ever gets triggered. I can't see how Corbyn or Watson have any hope of being a moderating force?
Probably >90% of the anti-Corbyn MPs could never have got elected if they weren't on a Labour ticket - funded, supported by, canvassed for and voted for by the people whose views they are now saying doesn't matter.
The last six days should be a wake-up call to the general population as to how the state/society actually works.
JagLover said:
By definition the minimum wage did not benefit the "average" working man.
Tax credits when they came in merely subsidised lifestyle choices and I remember the secretary of a working man's club (a client) complaining some of the cleaners were now paid more than him when they were introduced.
If you worked in the public sector, or were a single parent working the required 16 hours a week necessary to qualify for in work benefits, the "New Labour" years were great.
From housing, to energy costs to deindustrialisation to regulation of financial markets the picture is very different for a large chunk of working people.
Thats an interesting take on things, I thought the very thing people attack Blair and Brown for was for de-regualting the Banks and the financial industry (not forgetting the Tories also sided with Labour on that point too). I work in the finance industry and the regulation around now dwarfs anything in the early noughties. Tax credits when they came in merely subsidised lifestyle choices and I remember the secretary of a working man's club (a client) complaining some of the cleaners were now paid more than him when they were introduced.
If you worked in the public sector, or were a single parent working the required 16 hours a week necessary to qualify for in work benefits, the "New Labour" years were great.
From housing, to energy costs to deindustrialisation to regulation of financial markets the picture is very different for a large chunk of working people.
Eric Mc said:
Halb said:
Back to faceless automatons.
So what. Does Labour ever want to hold power again?That's the issue that is staring them in the face.
So yes, they are aiming for power and control. Just not using the structures in place for centuries.
VolvoT5 said:
Michael Howard and William Hague were the masters of showmanship and regularly humiliated Blair at PMQs........ didn't get them very far did it. Ed Miliband also regularly did well at PMQs, had some good ideas but the press never moved beyond Red Ed and bacon sandwich gate.
Clearly Jeremy isn't a great leader but given the choice between him and a plastic Blairite clone it is not hard to see why Labour members have voted for him. He is honest, principled and for people who care to look past the style the substance of what he is saying is often spot on. I think that is part of the reason he has faced such vicious attacks. The PLP only have themselves to blame for this situation, for years they ignored their core voters and did fk all to help Mr Average Joe as they were more interested in starting wars, claiming expenses and securing retirement jobs in the Lords or EU.
What Labour really need now is a principled person who also has leadership potential. Unfortunately those are very few on the ground, partly because in order to climb the greasy pole in politics one generally has to be an A grade wker.
The Conservatives are in a similar position really. IMO David Davis is probably the closest thing the Tories have to a thoughtful, honest and principled MP, but they won't choose him, it will be bullstter Boris because of his personality and perceived 'electability'.
Probably more likely to be Theresa May, unfortunately. She was a not very vocal 'remain' supporter who made sure to keep a low profile and not antagonise the 'leave' faction, in case of just this eventuality. Has some very nasty stasi-like opinions on 'security' vs civil liberties and privacy, totally the opposite of David Davies. But hey, she's a woman so she has the "Yay, diversity!" factor going for her. Clearly Jeremy isn't a great leader but given the choice between him and a plastic Blairite clone it is not hard to see why Labour members have voted for him. He is honest, principled and for people who care to look past the style the substance of what he is saying is often spot on. I think that is part of the reason he has faced such vicious attacks. The PLP only have themselves to blame for this situation, for years they ignored their core voters and did f
k all to help Mr Average Joe as they were more interested in starting wars, claiming expenses and securing retirement jobs in the Lords or EU. What Labour really need now is a principled person who also has leadership potential. Unfortunately those are very few on the ground, partly because in order to climb the greasy pole in politics one generally has to be an A grade w
ker.The Conservatives are in a similar position really. IMO David Davis is probably the closest thing the Tories have to a thoughtful, honest and principled MP, but they won't choose him, it will be bulls
tter Boris because of his personality and perceived 'electability'. Edited by VolvoT5 on Wednesday 29th June 15:00
berty37 said:
I find his breathtaking arrogance in the face of 80% of his own party not prepared to back him as deplorable.
Playing devil's advocate, you might argue that the arrogance is with the resigning MPs who want to ignore the wishes of the majority of their members by pushing Labour to be 'too' centrist.Corbyn's argument is powerful, in that he is the one sat with a mandate from Labour supporters.
JagLover said:
By definition the minimum wage did not benefit the "average" working man.
Tax credits when they came in merely subsidised lifestyle choices and I remember the secretary of a working man's club (a client) complaining some of the cleaners were now paid more than him when they were introduced.
If you worked in the public sector, or were a single parent working the required 16 hours a week necessary to qualify for in work benefits, the "New Labour" years were great.
From housing, to energy costs to deindustrialisation to regulation of financial markets the picture is very different for a large chunk of working people.
Gordon Brown saw tax credits as a way to create a base of captive voters, dependant on the state for much of their income and standard of living. It was also a great way to keep unemployment numbers down and subsidise low salaries from employers.Tax credits when they came in merely subsidised lifestyle choices and I remember the secretary of a working man's club (a client) complaining some of the cleaners were now paid more than him when they were introduced.
If you worked in the public sector, or were a single parent working the required 16 hours a week necessary to qualify for in work benefits, the "New Labour" years were great.
From housing, to energy costs to deindustrialisation to regulation of financial markets the picture is very different for a large chunk of working people.
House prices and their ridiculous bubble have their roots in Thatcher kicking off a mania for home owenership and associating it with surefire profit by forcing councils to effectively give away huge chunks of social housing and not allowing them to use the meagre proceeds to build more, thus pushing up private rental demand and 'buy to let', which fed back into even higher house prices. Ever since then, governments of any colour have figured that crazy-expensive houses are a surefire vote winner as it makes owners feel richer and generates a massive amount of new privately created credit through the banks, pumping the economy. Never mind that they make it so the average person has to go into massive amounts of debt to put a roof over their head.
And anyway, the way that the 'system' is set up means that whatever party you choose, you get pretty much the same laws passed and policies enacted - dictated by establishment insiders and multinational corporations and banks, not the wishes of the voter.
janesmith1950 said:
Playing devil's advocate, you might argue that the arrogance is with the resigning MPs who want to ignore the wishes of the majority of their members by pushing Labour to be 'too' centrist.
Corbyn's argument is powerful, in that he is the one sat with a mandate from Labour supporters.
Had it been the case that 4/5/6 front benchers walked i would say yes you have a very good point but 80% is a lot different - bear in mind that a decent amount of that 80% are probably not Blairites or plastic Blairites as they have been called. Also clearly people paying a £3 membership to vote on the next leader - that was never going to be a skewed vote was it!!!Corbyn's argument is powerful, in that he is the one sat with a mandate from Labour supporters.
David Miliband overwhelmingly won the support of his party colleagues but the union vote thanks to Harriet Harman and her husband secured Ed - but there wasnt an 80% 'walk out' was there and Ed is pretty left of his brother.
berty37 said:
...why did seemingly the core old traditional Labour voter... go with leave?
I may be deluded but I'd hope they voted on the issues surrounding whether the UK should stay in or leave the EU.If they voted due to party politics, because one MP told them to vote one way or the other and they like/don't like them, or because red or blue were their favourite colour, well then they're idiots who didn't deserve the vote in the first place and want reaming out with a conifer.
This whole BREXIT thing was bigger and much more far reaching than any grasping politician's bloody career.
I suspect that there are people out there who would be found at the foot of Beach Head if CMD was at the top telling them not to jump.
Edited by DJFish on Wednesday 29th June 16:02
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff