Can we hunt him using an Apache?
Discussion
irocfan said:
On the subject of trophy hunting though - why don't people get their panties in a twist about fishing marlin, sailfish etc? Aren't fish cuddly enough?
Do you understand the concept of something "going viral" on the internet? There is not necessarily any logic or science to it when it happens (or not, in the case of the Marlin).But one possible reason is:
- we know a number of mammals in Africa (for example) are endangered
- we know the value of life in Africa is pretty low compared to Europe
- we don't buy the excuses that this kill (and other trophy hunts) help conservation (in the same way that fox hunts don't keep fox numbers down)
- these creatures are almost universally accepted to be "beautiful" and are the animals we were brought up reading about and watching on TV. The "humanisation" of these creatures by Disney et al also probably has an effect.
In contrast:
- I have no idea about fish numbers
- I believe most fish, if not kept for food, are returned to the water pretty much unharmed (might be wrong, but it's a common belief)
- No-one makes a pathetic excuse that fishing improves fish numbers. It's a "sport" - the fish is caught, photographed and returned.
- And, as you said, fish aren't as cute and fluffy as lions etc
But regardless of all this, I don't think anyone should be saying "you can't be outraged by this if you're not outraged by xyz". Any "sport" that derives pleasure from hunting, torturing and killing animals for "fun" is sick in my opinion, and says a lot about the participants. See fox hunting, badger baiting, hare coursing, bull fighting, cock fighting and shooting the neighbours' cats with an air rifle for more details.
wiggy001 said:
irocfan said:
On the subject of trophy hunting though - why don't people get their panties in a twist about fishing marlin, sailfish etc? Aren't fish cuddly enough?
Do you understand the concept of something "going viral" on the internet? There is not necessarily any logic or science to it when it happens (or not, in the case of the Marlin).But one possible reason is:
- we know a number of mammals in Africa (for example) are endangered
- we know the value of life in Africa is pretty low compared to Europe
- we don't buy the excuses that this kill (and other trophy hunts) help conservation (in the same way that fox hunts don't keep fox numbers down)
- these creatures are almost universally accepted to be "beautiful" and are the animals we were brought up reading about and watching on TV. The "humanisation" of these creatures by Disney et al also probably has an effect.
In contrast:
- I have no idea about fish numbers
- I believe most fish, if not kept for food, are returned to the water pretty much unharmed (might be wrong, but it's a common belief)
- No-one makes a pathetic excuse that fishing improves fish numbers. It's a "sport" - the fish is caught, photographed and returned.
- And, as you said, fish aren't as cute and fluffy as lions etc
But regardless of all this, I don't think anyone should be saying "you can't be outraged by this if you're not outraged by xyz". Any "sport" that derives pleasure from hunting, torturing and killing animals for "fun" is sick in my opinion, and says a lot about the participants. See fox hunting, badger baiting, hare coursing, bull fighting, cock fighting and shooting the neighbours' cats with an air rifle for more details.
ker up, if he's not guilty then (however distasteful his actions are) stop hounding him. We seem to be getting back towards the idiot mentality that spawned the witchtrials irocfan said:
oh I understand going viral (and all of what you said above) what it seems to boil down to is mob-rule. IF idiot dentist is guilty of poaching lock the fker up, if he's not guilty then (however distasteful his actions are) stop hounding him. We seem to be getting back towards the idiot mentality that spawned the witchtrials
Agree to an extent. The problem is that via the internet we have a lot of knowledge of the ker up, if he's not guilty then (however distasteful his actions are) stop hounding him. We seem to be getting back towards the idiot mentality that spawned the witchtrials y things that are going on in the world but no real, easy way to do anything about it other than internet "mob rule". However, if it raises awareness of the y things people in the world are doing every day, and those y people are prevented/persuaded from doing them (hopefully by the activities becoming illegal or too distasteful to be economically viable), then I have little issue with that.In this case, very little will change. Africa doesn't give much of a s
t about anything other than dollars (in this respect), although I would imagine there are some that have donated to conservation projects because of this story.Ordinarily I disagree with this kind of "justice", but as the dentist was happy to pose for pictures showing what a
he is, he must be prepared to take the flak.wiggy001 said:
Agree to an extent. The problem is that via the internet we have a lot of knowledge of the y things that are going on in the world but no real, easy way to do anything about it other than internet "mob rule". However, if it raises awareness of the y things people in the world are doing every day, and those y people are prevented/persuaded from doing them (hopefully by the activities becoming illegal or too distasteful to be economically viable), then I have little issue with that.
In this case, very little will change. Africa doesn't give much of a st about anything other than dollars (in this respect), although I would imagine there are some that have donated to conservation projects because of this story.
Ordinarily I disagree with this kind of "justice", but as the dentist was happy to pose for pictures showing what a he is, he must be prepared to take the flak.
it just seems so wrong on many levels that a rich man can go basically do what he wants where he wants. y things that are going on in the world but no real, easy way to do anything about it other than internet "mob rule". However, if it raises awareness of the y things people in the world are doing every day, and those y people are prevented/persuaded from doing them (hopefully by the activities becoming illegal or too distasteful to be economically viable), then I have little issue with that.In this case, very little will change. Africa doesn't give much of a s
t about anything other than dollars (in this respect), although I would imagine there are some that have donated to conservation projects because of this story.Ordinarily I disagree with this kind of "justice", but as the dentist was happy to pose for pictures showing what a
he is, he must be prepared to take the flak.Legal or not the whole thing just stinks and I am sure that eventually he will surface and tell us why he did what he did.
irocfan said:
oh I understand going viral (and all of what you said above) what it seems to boil down to is mob-rule. IF idiot dentist is guilty of poaching lock the fker up, if he's not guilty then (however distasteful his actions are) stop hounding him. We seem to be getting back towards the idiot mentality that spawned the witchtrials
His two guides apparently didn’t have a permit to kill a lion so he’s pretty much bang to rights. He can try and blame them but at the end of the day he’s the one who shot it. ker up, if he's not guilty then (however distasteful his actions are) stop hounding him. We seem to be getting back towards the idiot mentality that spawned the witchtrials Does he deserve to have his life ruined? Not really.
Should anyone feel sorry for him? Not really. Reap what you sow and all that.
wiggy001 said:
Do you understand the concept of something "going viral" on the internet? There is not necessarily any logic or science to it when it happens (or not, in the case of the Marlin).
But one possible reason is:
- we know a number of mammals in Africa (for example) are endangered
- we know the value of life in Africa is pretty low compared to Europe
- we don't buy the excuses that this kill (and other trophy hunts) help conservation (in the same way that fox hunts don't keep fox numbers down)
- these creatures are almost universally accepted to be "beautiful" and are the animals we were brought up reading about and watching on TV. The "humanisation" of these creatures by Disney et al also probably has an effect.
In contrast:
- I have no idea about fish numbers
- I believe most fish, if not kept for food, are returned to the water pretty much unharmed (might be wrong, but it's a common belief)
- No-one makes a pathetic excuse that fishing improves fish numbers. It's a "sport" - the fish is caught, photographed and returned.
- And, as you said, fish aren't as cute and fluffy as lions etc
But regardless of all this, I don't think anyone should be saying "you can't be outraged by this if you're not outraged by xyz". Any "sport" that derives pleasure from hunting, torturing and killing animals for "fun" is sick in my opinion, and says a lot about the participants. See fox hunting, badger baiting, hare coursing, bull fighting, cock fighting and shooting the neighbours' cats with an air rifle for more details.
Wiggy, you don't need to repeat this. It's been said over and over again already, and the arguments have been taken apart point by point several times but you and others don't want to hear it.But one possible reason is:
- we know a number of mammals in Africa (for example) are endangered
- we know the value of life in Africa is pretty low compared to Europe
- we don't buy the excuses that this kill (and other trophy hunts) help conservation (in the same way that fox hunts don't keep fox numbers down)
- these creatures are almost universally accepted to be "beautiful" and are the animals we were brought up reading about and watching on TV. The "humanisation" of these creatures by Disney et al also probably has an effect.
In contrast:
- I have no idea about fish numbers
- I believe most fish, if not kept for food, are returned to the water pretty much unharmed (might be wrong, but it's a common belief)
- No-one makes a pathetic excuse that fishing improves fish numbers. It's a "sport" - the fish is caught, photographed and returned.
- And, as you said, fish aren't as cute and fluffy as lions etc
But regardless of all this, I don't think anyone should be saying "you can't be outraged by this if you're not outraged by xyz". Any "sport" that derives pleasure from hunting, torturing and killing animals for "fun" is sick in my opinion, and says a lot about the participants. See fox hunting, badger baiting, hare coursing, bull fighting, cock fighting and shooting the neighbours' cats with an air rifle for more details.
We all get it; a lot of people are repelled by the idea of trophy hunting. But feeling repulsion is not enough. You have to stop and ask yourself if your repulsion is justified, or whether it is just prejudice.
TheJimi said:
ATG said:
You have to stop and ask yourself if your repulsion is justified, or whether it is just prejudice.
Eh?Yes, I am prejudiced against w
kers that enjoy torturing and/or killing animals for fun - I believe they are all wkers without having met a single one of them. Is that what you meant ATG?
Neil H said:
His two guides apparently didn’t have a permit to kill a lion so he’s pretty much bang to rights. He can try and blame them but at the end of the day he’s the one who shot it.
According to the telegraph Palmer did have a permit http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaan... The guides are in st for allegedly luring the lion from a reserve onto private land in order to shoot it, not for killing a lion. It seems he had a permit to shoot a lion, just not one with a name. IMO there is zero chance the US will extradite an American to Zimbabwe so we will probably never know.Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 6th August 17:24
wiggy001 said:
TheJimi said:
ATG said:
You have to stop and ask yourself if your repulsion is justified, or whether it is just prejudice.
Eh?Yes, I am prejudiced against w
kers that enjoy torturing and/or killing animals for fun - I believe they are all wkers without having met a single one of them. Is that what you meant ATG?
ker pays to kill the animal the game reserve and the local community get a lot of cash. If a reserve warden kills the same animal no money is earned. The animal dies either way. So which is better for nature conservancy and biodiversity?here's another point - IIRC lions in the wild are average 10-14 years of age... this lion was 12 years old, yes he could have had another couple of years ahead of him he may not have this way the conservation peeps get 50k for and animal likely to die soon anyway.
With all the above being said though I still can't understand why you'd want to use a rifle and crossbow to kill for fun - if you're after a test of your manhood do it the Masai way, now that I could respect
With all the above being said though I still can't understand why you'd want to use a rifle and crossbow to kill for fun - if you're after a test of your manhood do it the Masai way, now that I could respect
irocfan said:
With all the above being said though I still can't understand why you'd want to use a rifle and crossbow to kill for fun - if you're after a test of your manhood do it the Masai way, now that I could respect
I'd rather they just try it with their bare hands. Then film it and upload it to youtube....ATG said:
If the a wker pays to kill the animal the game reserve and the local community get a lot of cash.
Got any links to back that up because I believe from the reading I have done that the local communities get close to F-all from trophy hunters.ker pays to kill the animal the game reserve and the local community get a lot of cash.ATG said:
If a reserve warden kills the same animal no money is earned. The animal dies either way. So which is better for nature conservancy and biodiversity?
Do you seriously believe we need to kill animals (whose numbers have plummeted in the last 20 years) in order to preserve their numbers? I call bks. It may help to clear the conscience of those involved (if they have a conscience) but that is all. It's the equivalent of me breeding unicorns in my house then shooting them when I run out of space, despite them being the only unicorns in the world. And charging a fortune for the "priviledge".
wiggy001 said:
Do you seriously believe we need to kill animals (whose numbers have plummeted in the last 20 years) in order to preserve their numbers? I call bks. It may help to clear the conscience of those involved (if they have a conscience) but that is all.
It's the equivalent of me breeding unicorns in my house then shooting them when I run out of space, despite them being the only unicorns in the world. And charging a fortune for the "priviledge".
Whilst your emotion is good, your logic is not. I don't like the 'culling' of red deer in Scotland, but I understand why...ks. It may help to clear the conscience of those involved (if they have a conscience) but that is all. It's the equivalent of me breeding unicorns in my house then shooting them when I run out of space, despite them being the only unicorns in the world. And charging a fortune for the "priviledge".
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