Lammys latest wheeze....
Discussion
Henners said:
He did get a little angry didn’t he!
Apparently the ERG are akin to the nazi party now...
He does have a somewhat strained point. Apparently the ERG are akin to the nazi party now...
Not that the ERG are Nazis, but saying you can't call people out for extreme beliefs for fear of being found to be offensive can lead to extreme beliefs being normalized and ultimately in power. Hitler was elected.
g7orge said:
irocfan said:
just out of curiosity... why was it unacceptable for member of the 'great unwashed' to call sourbry a nazi but perfectly ok for this throbber to cll other MP's nazis? One rule for them again?
Integroo said:
He does have a somewhat strained point.
Not that the ERG are Nazis, but saying you can't call people out for extreme beliefs for fear of being found to be offensive can lead to extreme beliefs being normalized and ultimately in power. Hitler was elected.
No. He doesn't. He really doesn't. And your attempt at defending him is as nauseating as it is wrong. (but perhaps not entirely unpredictable)Not that the ERG are Nazis, but saying you can't call people out for extreme beliefs for fear of being found to be offensive can lead to extreme beliefs being normalized and ultimately in power. Hitler was elected.
Let's be absolutely clear here. Lammy equated the ERG, JRM, BJ, with both the Nazi party and the apartheid regime in South Africa. That's about as offensive as it gets in modern politics. Even when (a somewhat incredulous) Andrew Marr gave Lammy a chance to 'clarify' his position (polite speak for, "are you sure you want to say that?") Lammy repeated his accusations.
Now, there can be only two possible reasons for Lammy's attack :
1. He genuinely believes that the ERG is the modern day equivalent of the Nazis, (with presumably JRM holding some sort of senior position akin to Hitler, Bormann or Goebbels). If this is the case (which I doubt) then you should seriously question whether Lammy is fit for office, such is his lack of judgement.
2. He is rattled and has lapsed into the tired old left wing trope of attempting to silence anyone or any group with whom he disagrees by labelling them as either racists or Nazis. (In this case he's gone all out and tried for both)
My money is on option 2. The sad fact is that this is what passes for politics from some parts of the Remain camp. Unable to deal with the fact the Referendum in 2016 went to Brexit. Unable to deal with the fact that people have seen through Remainer May's deal and there is no majority in the house for it. Desperate to make Bexit go away and neither intelligent enough nor articulate enough to win the debate he resorts to trying to create the nastiest slurs about his opponents.
People end up with extremists because the 'moderates' fail to listen, engage or respect their views. For this reason Lammy is a cause of extremism not a bulwark against it.
There is no strained point. Shame on you.
andymadmak said:
No. He doesn't. He really doesn't. And your attempt at defending him is as nauseating as it is wrong. (but perhaps not entirely unpredictable)
Let's be absolutely clear here. Lammy equated the ERG, JRM, BJ, with both the Nazi party and the apartheid regime in South Africa. That's about as offensive as it gets in modern politics. Even when (a somewhat incredulous) Andrew Marr gave Lammy a chance to 'clarify' his position (polite speak for, "are you sure you want to say that?") Lammy repeated his accusations.
Now, there can be only two possible reasons for Lammy's attack :
1. He genuinely believes that the ERG is the modern day equivalent of the Nazis, (with presumably JRM holding some sort of senior position akin to Hitler, Bormann or Goebbels). If this is the case (which I doubt) then you should seriously question whether Lammy is fit for office, such is his lack of judgement.
2. He is rattled and has lapsed into the tired old left wing trope of attempting to silence anyone or any group with whom he disagrees by labelling them as either racists or Nazis. (In this case he's gone all out and tried for both)
My money is on option 2. The sad fact is that this is what passes for politics from some parts of the Remain camp. Unable to deal with the fact the Referendum in 2016 went to Brexit. Unable to deal with the fact that people have seen through Remainer May's deal and there is no majority in the house for it. Desperate to make Bexit go away and neither intelligent enough nor articulate enough to win the debate he resorts to trying to create the nastiest slurs about his opponents.
People end up with extremists because the 'moderates' fail to listen, engage or respect their views. For this reason Lammy is a cause of extremism not a bulwark against it.
There is no strained point. Shame on you.
No, the point was not to make nasty slurs, and as I said, his point is not entirely with merit and was delivered poorly. However, JRM and his ERG cohorts hold some extreme and bigoted views. If he doesn't want to get compared to Nazis, he should avoid tweeting speeches of far right nationalist German politicians who openly campaign on aggressive, racist rhetoric tinged with Nazi overtones. He has relationships with reactionary and ultra-nationalist far right groups. These are not the sort of people I want anywhere near mainstream politics. Let's be absolutely clear here. Lammy equated the ERG, JRM, BJ, with both the Nazi party and the apartheid regime in South Africa. That's about as offensive as it gets in modern politics. Even when (a somewhat incredulous) Andrew Marr gave Lammy a chance to 'clarify' his position (polite speak for, "are you sure you want to say that?") Lammy repeated his accusations.
Now, there can be only two possible reasons for Lammy's attack :
1. He genuinely believes that the ERG is the modern day equivalent of the Nazis, (with presumably JRM holding some sort of senior position akin to Hitler, Bormann or Goebbels). If this is the case (which I doubt) then you should seriously question whether Lammy is fit for office, such is his lack of judgement.
2. He is rattled and has lapsed into the tired old left wing trope of attempting to silence anyone or any group with whom he disagrees by labelling them as either racists or Nazis. (In this case he's gone all out and tried for both)
My money is on option 2. The sad fact is that this is what passes for politics from some parts of the Remain camp. Unable to deal with the fact the Referendum in 2016 went to Brexit. Unable to deal with the fact that people have seen through Remainer May's deal and there is no majority in the house for it. Desperate to make Bexit go away and neither intelligent enough nor articulate enough to win the debate he resorts to trying to create the nastiest slurs about his opponents.
People end up with extremists because the 'moderates' fail to listen, engage or respect their views. For this reason Lammy is a cause of extremism not a bulwark against it.
There is no strained point. Shame on you.
Quite frankly, some of the most extreme Brexiteer's are motivated by right wing nationalist anti-immigration politics. Some quotes from the UN:
“The environment leading up to the referendum, the environment during the referendum, and the environment after the referendum has made racial and ethnic minorities more vulnerable to racial discrimination and intolerance".
“The discourses on racial equality before, during and after the 2016 referendum, as well as the policies and practices upon which the Brexit debate has conferred legitimacy, raise serious issues at the core of my mandate"
We need to be very careful that extreme racist views get nowhere near mainstream politics.
Edited by Integroo on Monday 15th April 13:20
Integroo said:
No, the point was not to make nasty slurs, and as I said, his point is not entirely with merit and was delivered poorly. However, JRM and his ERG cohorts hold some extreme and bigoted views. If he doesn't want to get compared to Nazis, he should avoid tweeting speeches of far right nationalist German politicians who openly campaign on aggressive, racist rhetoric tinged with Nazi overtones. He has relationships with reactionary and ultra-nationalist far right groups. These are not the sort of people I want anywhere near mainstream politics.
What do you feel about senior Labour politicians praising mass murdering left wing dictators?A Winner Is You said:
Integroo said:
No, the point was not to make nasty slurs, and as I said, his point is not entirely with merit and was delivered poorly. However, JRM and his ERG cohorts hold some extreme and bigoted views. If he doesn't want to get compared to Nazis, he should avoid tweeting speeches of far right nationalist German politicians who openly campaign on aggressive, racist rhetoric tinged with Nazi overtones. He has relationships with reactionary and ultra-nationalist far right groups. These are not the sort of people I want anywhere near mainstream politics.
What do you feel about senior Labour politicians praising mass murdering left wing dictators?Integroo said:
We need to be very careful that extreme racist views get nowhere near mainstream politics.
I completely agree. Not sure why that legitimises Lammy's conflation of the ERG with the Nazis though. Edited by Integroo on Monday 15th April 13:20
But then, unless I am mistaken, you are rather silent about the Labour party's well documented anti semitism, not to mention the nakedly racist uttering of a certain senior Labour front bencher.
Double standards much?
andymadmak said:
I completely agree. Not sure why that legitimises Lammy's conflation of the ERG with the Nazis though.
But then, unless I am mistaken, you are rather silent about the Labour party's well documented anti semitism, not to mention the nakedly racist uttering of a certain senior Labour front bencher.
Double standards much?
Where would I have mentioned this ? Are we talking about anti-semitism in the Labour party ? In any event, I don't support Corbyn and won't vote Labour with him in charge, so not sure what this has got to do with anything ? But then, unless I am mistaken, you are rather silent about the Labour party's well documented anti semitism, not to mention the nakedly racist uttering of a certain senior Labour front bencher.
Double standards much?
All I am saying is that comparing JRM to the Nazis is not as far fetched as you make out, given his links with far right ultra nationalist movements, his retweeting of speeches of far right German politicians, his extreme views on immigration, his generally bigoted views on various other things. Just because he wears tweed and is a bit posh rather than being a skinhead doesn't mean he isn't an extremist.
Integroo said:
andymadmak said:
No. He doesn't. He really doesn't. And your attempt at defending him is as nauseating as it is wrong. (but perhaps not entirely unpredictable)
Let's be absolutely clear here. Lammy equated the ERG, JRM, BJ, with both the Nazi party and the apartheid regime in South Africa. That's about as offensive as it gets in modern politics. Even when (a somewhat incredulous) Andrew Marr gave Lammy a chance to 'clarify' his position (polite speak for, "are you sure you want to say that?") Lammy repeated his accusations.
Now, there can be only two possible reasons for Lammy's attack :
1. He genuinely believes that the ERG is the modern day equivalent of the Nazis, (with presumably JRM holding some sort of senior position akin to Hitler, Bormann or Goebbels). If this is the case (which I doubt) then you should seriously question whether Lammy is fit for office, such is his lack of judgement.
2. He is rattled and has lapsed into the tired old left wing trope of attempting to silence anyone or any group with whom he disagrees by labelling them as either racists or Nazis. (In this case he's gone all out and tried for both)
My money is on option 2. The sad fact is that this is what passes for politics from some parts of the Remain camp. Unable to deal with the fact the Referendum in 2016 went to Brexit. Unable to deal with the fact that people have seen through Remainer May's deal and there is no majority in the house for it. Desperate to make Bexit go away and neither intelligent enough nor articulate enough to win the debate he resorts to trying to create the nastiest slurs about his opponents.
People end up with extremists because the 'moderates' fail to listen, engage or respect their views. For this reason Lammy is a cause of extremism not a bulwark against it.
There is no strained point. Shame on you.
No, the point was not to make nasty slurs, and as I said, his point is not entirely with merit and was delivered poorly. However, JRM and his ERG cohorts hold some extreme and bigoted views. If he doesn't want to get compared to Nazis, he should avoid tweeting speeches of far right nationalist German politicians who openly campaign on aggressive, racist rhetoric tinged with Nazi overtones. He has relationships with reactionary and ultra-nationalist far right groups. These are not the sort of people I want anywhere near mainstream politics. Let's be absolutely clear here. Lammy equated the ERG, JRM, BJ, with both the Nazi party and the apartheid regime in South Africa. That's about as offensive as it gets in modern politics. Even when (a somewhat incredulous) Andrew Marr gave Lammy a chance to 'clarify' his position (polite speak for, "are you sure you want to say that?") Lammy repeated his accusations.
Now, there can be only two possible reasons for Lammy's attack :
1. He genuinely believes that the ERG is the modern day equivalent of the Nazis, (with presumably JRM holding some sort of senior position akin to Hitler, Bormann or Goebbels). If this is the case (which I doubt) then you should seriously question whether Lammy is fit for office, such is his lack of judgement.
2. He is rattled and has lapsed into the tired old left wing trope of attempting to silence anyone or any group with whom he disagrees by labelling them as either racists or Nazis. (In this case he's gone all out and tried for both)
My money is on option 2. The sad fact is that this is what passes for politics from some parts of the Remain camp. Unable to deal with the fact the Referendum in 2016 went to Brexit. Unable to deal with the fact that people have seen through Remainer May's deal and there is no majority in the house for it. Desperate to make Bexit go away and neither intelligent enough nor articulate enough to win the debate he resorts to trying to create the nastiest slurs about his opponents.
People end up with extremists because the 'moderates' fail to listen, engage or respect their views. For this reason Lammy is a cause of extremism not a bulwark against it.
There is no strained point. Shame on you.
Quite frankly, some of the most extreme Brexiteer's are motivated by right wing nationalist anti-immigration politics. Some quotes from the UN:
Edited by Integroo on Monday 15th April 13:20
Can you post up the evidence to support the claim.
A Winner Is You said:
What do you feel about senior Labour politicians praising mass murdering left wing dictators?
Again, what's this got to do with anything? I don't like Corbyn and won't vote for him. I think his comments on various things are shameful, including Maduro, and don't understand his/left-wing Labour's obsession with Palestine/Israel.
Integroo said:
No, the point was not to make nasty slurs, and as I said, his point is not entirely with merit and was delivered poorly. However, JRM and his ERG cohorts hold some extreme and bigoted views. If he doesn't want to get compared to Nazis, he should avoid tweeting speeches of far right nationalist German politicians who openly campaign on aggressive, racist rhetoric tinged with Nazi overtones. He has relationships with reactionary and ultra-nationalist far right groups. These are not the sort of people I want anywhere near mainstream politics.
Tough? The AfD hold seats in the Bundestag, that's about as mainstream as it gets.Play the ball, not the man. I watched the speech you refer to and thought she was pretty much spot on. What did you find objectionable about the video?
don'tbesilly said:
To make such a bold claim you must have some unequivocal evidence to back it up.
Can you post up the evidence to support the claim.
JRM attended a dinner hosted by The Traditional Britain Group, a far-right group. Their views include the forced 'repatriation' of ethnic minority people from Britain and the repeal of race relation laws. They refer to Chuka Umunna, a Londoner and a British citizen, as a Nigerian. Many of its members have links to fascist groups. It is run by a chap called Gregory Lauder-Frost who formerly headed The Monday Club, an organisation that the Tories suspended its links with in 2001 over its rhetoric on race and immigration. JRM was warned before attending by Searchlight, the anti-fascist group, about their extreme views, but went anyway. Can you post up the evidence to support the claim.
amusingduck said:
Tough? The AfD hold seats in the Bundestag, that's about as mainstream as it gets.
Play the ball, not the man. I watched the speech you refer to and thought she was pretty much spot on. What did you find objectionable about the video?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37274201Play the ball, not the man. I watched the speech you refer to and thought she was pretty much spot on. What did you find objectionable about the video?
"Is it far-right?
Yes. Leading AfD figures made extremist statements before and during the 2017 election campaign."
Whether or not what was said in the speech itself was extremist is not the point. JRM happily endorses their views. If you don't want to be called a Nazi, don't associate yourself with the far-right.
Integroo said:
amusingduck said:
Tough? The AfD hold seats in the Bundestag, that's about as mainstream as it gets.
Play the ball, not the man. I watched the speech you refer to and thought she was pretty much spot on. What did you find objectionable about the video?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37274201Play the ball, not the man. I watched the speech you refer to and thought she was pretty much spot on. What did you find objectionable about the video?
"Is it far-right?
Yes. Leading AfD figures made extremist statements before and during the 2017 election campaign."
Whether or not what was said in the speech itself was extremist is not the point. JRM happily endorses their views. If you don't want to be called a Nazi, don't associate yourself with the far-right.
Presumably the BBC, Guardian, Sky, Express etc are also endorsing the AfD's views by drawing attention to this speech?
Integroo said:
amusingduck said:
Tough? The AfD hold seats in the Bundestag, that's about as mainstream as it gets.
Play the ball, not the man. I watched the speech you refer to and thought she was pretty much spot on. What did you find objectionable about the video?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37274201Play the ball, not the man. I watched the speech you refer to and thought she was pretty much spot on. What did you find objectionable about the video?
"Is it far-right?
Yes. Leading AfD figures made extremist statements before and during the 2017 election campaign."
Whether or not what was said in the speech itself was extremist is not the point. JRM happily endorses their views. If you don't want to be called a Nazi, don't associate yourself with the far-right.
Integroo said:
don'tbesilly said:
To make such a bold claim you must have some unequivocal evidence to back it up.
Can you post up the evidence to support the claim.
JRM attended a dinner hosted by The Traditional Britain Group, a far-right group. Their views include the forced 'repatriation' of ethnic minority people from Britain and the repeal of race relation laws. They refer to Chuka Umunna, a Londoner and a British citizen, as a Nigerian. Many of its members have links to fascist groups. It is run by a chap called Gregory Lauder-Frost who formerly headed The Monday Club, an organisation that the Tories suspended its links with in 2001 over its rhetoric on race and immigration. JRM was warned before attending by Searchlight, the anti-fascist group, about their extreme views, but went anyway. Can you post up the evidence to support the claim.
Integroo said:
He has relationships with reactionary and ultra-nationalist far right groups. These are not the sort of people I want anywhere near mainstream politics.
JRM attended a dinner that's it.Does that in anyway support what you've written?
Why don't you make the same accusation directly to JRM and see what response you get, it's one thing writing such stuff on a forum, but you've hardly established any credibility in your claim.
Give it a try and let us know the response, here you go:
jacob.reesmogg.mp@parliament.uk
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