Should the railways be nationalised?
Poll: Should the railways be nationalised?
Total Members Polled: 471
Discussion
I work on the railway, for a private a private machine maintenance company. Despite Network rail often making a complete hash of things, at least they try. Money does get spent and improvements are made, the railway is maintained and faults fixed. Regular meetings ensure methods and practices to get better, even if very slowly.
I know people who worked at BR and their view was that although easy, it was absolutely s
t. A day or night at work consisted of trying to do as little as possible whilst getting away with it. Nothing was done, and staff were paid to sit around drinking amd playing cards all night. On the rare occasion work was done, it was slack and unsafe. As for repairs, these were only carried out when the damage could either no longer be hidden/ignored any longer, or some sort of inspector was present. That being said he was usually pissed himself amd didn't really care. Should someone truly responsible complain about the massive lack of effort and then threaten disciplinary action, everyone would instantly get the union involved and the whole thing would be swept under the rug.
Things were better under privatisation with railtrack, although it quickly became apparent they were only going through the motions of proper care and maintenance, as in actuality they didn't have a clue about what needed to be done. Ultimately they turned out to be a prime example of how privatisation can be just awful.
The job i do came about from a severe incident in London that also served as the nail in railtracks coffin. As i said, Network rail are not fantastic but they do an adequate job, it's the best we've had it in years. Sure fares are more expensive, but its a worthwhile price to pay for a properly maintained infrastructure.
I fear nationalisation would lead to a lack of funding and things would either go back to a much more dangerous time and be cheaper, or would be a massive drain on government funds and the cost of everything would rise exponentially.
I know people who worked at BR and their view was that although easy, it was absolutely s
t. A day or night at work consisted of trying to do as little as possible whilst getting away with it. Nothing was done, and staff were paid to sit around drinking amd playing cards all night. On the rare occasion work was done, it was slack and unsafe. As for repairs, these were only carried out when the damage could either no longer be hidden/ignored any longer, or some sort of inspector was present. That being said he was usually pissed himself amd didn't really care. Should someone truly responsible complain about the massive lack of effort and then threaten disciplinary action, everyone would instantly get the union involved and the whole thing would be swept under the rug.Things were better under privatisation with railtrack, although it quickly became apparent they were only going through the motions of proper care and maintenance, as in actuality they didn't have a clue about what needed to be done. Ultimately they turned out to be a prime example of how privatisation can be just awful.
The job i do came about from a severe incident in London that also served as the nail in railtracks coffin. As i said, Network rail are not fantastic but they do an adequate job, it's the best we've had it in years. Sure fares are more expensive, but its a worthwhile price to pay for a properly maintained infrastructure.
I fear nationalisation would lead to a lack of funding and things would either go back to a much more dangerous time and be cheaper, or would be a massive drain on government funds and the cost of everything would rise exponentially.
Seeming as someone's brought up to way people operated in BR, here are some examples of what went on our patch,
Whilst working permanent day shifts - buy a taxi, go taxi driving all night come to work, book on and sleep all day.
One lad had a carpet cleaning business, he used to book on then go carpet cleaning all day, only coming back to book off.
A few lads created a service bay in the workshop so cars can be worked on whilst on afternoon shift.
The electricians would book on and then clear off house bashing all day.
Apprentices were left behind on a Sunday day shift to cook a full Sunday dinner for the returning lads (using only a pot bellied stove and a baby belling) sometimes you had to do fry ups too.
The big "chip vans'" would be used for house removal jobs.
Everyone would be filling cars up off the company.
When tiger tokens where at ESSO they used to leave vans running all the time even with the rear axle off the ground and a brick on the throttle to waste fuel whilst at the depot, the only person to claim all the prizes (I think the top one was a TV) was from our place.
If it was a nice summers day you'd go play football or cricket at the park after a few pints,
Shift changes,
Days would come on at 6am and wake the night shift up to go home.
Afternoons would meet the day shift at the pub to changeover when the day shift has been there since dinner.
Nights would meet the afternoon shift at the working men's club until last orders where the least pissed member of staff would drive the team to the depot for sleeping and await day turn coming on.
Whilst working permanent day shifts - buy a taxi, go taxi driving all night come to work, book on and sleep all day.
One lad had a carpet cleaning business, he used to book on then go carpet cleaning all day, only coming back to book off.
A few lads created a service bay in the workshop so cars can be worked on whilst on afternoon shift.
The electricians would book on and then clear off house bashing all day.
Apprentices were left behind on a Sunday day shift to cook a full Sunday dinner for the returning lads (using only a pot bellied stove and a baby belling) sometimes you had to do fry ups too.
The big "chip vans'" would be used for house removal jobs.
Everyone would be filling cars up off the company.
When tiger tokens where at ESSO they used to leave vans running all the time even with the rear axle off the ground and a brick on the throttle to waste fuel whilst at the depot, the only person to claim all the prizes (I think the top one was a TV) was from our place.
If it was a nice summers day you'd go play football or cricket at the park after a few pints,
Shift changes,
Days would come on at 6am and wake the night shift up to go home.
Afternoons would meet the day shift at the pub to changeover when the day shift has been there since dinner.
Nights would meet the afternoon shift at the working men's club until last orders where the least pissed member of staff would drive the team to the depot for sleeping and await day turn coming on.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: How do other countries seem to manage with cheap fares, trains that run on time, and ticketing structures where you don't need to book 3 weeks in advance if you don't want to hock a kidney?
I don't know if the answer is nationalised or not, but the current system doesn't seem like a shining example of how to do it properly.
If you are going to compare railway networks you need to compare the age of the network, the subsidy its gets, and whether it is operating at peak capacity or not.I don't know if the answer is nationalised or not, but the current system doesn't seem like a shining example of how to do it properly.
Some will recall there was total chaos on the Southern side of London Bridge at the beginning of the year. The reason for this was that track capacity had been reduced leading to the station, and therefore capacity for trains reduced. Southern though wanted to keep as many trains running as possible and offer the best service they could to their passengers who didnt want their trains cancelled. The outcome being the timetable was scheduled at 100% capacity. That would be fine if nothing went wrong, however the moment anything went wrong there was no spare capicity so one train left late, the incoming one was late etc.
Broadly the high speed line works because it doesnt have conflicting movements on it, its new and uses new rolling stock. Although having said I believe the average age of UK rolling stock is reducing and we have a lot of new stock with more on order.
I get the reasons for not nationalising the railways however they were only really applicable when we (Britain) were pretty rubbish at running a nationalised service.
I can't see any reason why the national railways can't be run like TfL runs the Tube i.e. have a Transport for Britain (TfB) organisation for the railways. All I seem to read at the moment is that TfL are constantly improving the service provided and my relatively extensive experience (i.e. I use it quite a bit) would, for the majority of the time, confirm this assumption. Why aren't we taking all the experience we've gained through TfL and applying it nationwide to the railway network?
ETA: To clarify, I couldn't give a flying fk whether utilities are nationalised or not. Whatever is best should be accepted and promoted.
I can't see any reason why the national railways can't be run like TfL runs the Tube i.e. have a Transport for Britain (TfB) organisation for the railways. All I seem to read at the moment is that TfL are constantly improving the service provided and my relatively extensive experience (i.e. I use it quite a bit) would, for the majority of the time, confirm this assumption. Why aren't we taking all the experience we've gained through TfL and applying it nationwide to the railway network?
ETA: To clarify, I couldn't give a flying f
k whether utilities are nationalised or not. Whatever is best should be accepted and promoted.Edited by MrBarry123 on Sunday 20th September 23:53
MajorProblem said:
Basically the railway was at its zenith at the end of World War Two, BR was born from the big four and then the railway was run into the ground until BRs demise in c1994
I've never read anything that suggests this is remotely true, rather the opposite; the network was commandeered by the state in 1939 and run into the ground with minimal maintenance and whatever emergency repairs necessary as a result of the Luftwaffe's redevelopment work. By 1945 everything was utterly knackered, unfortunately the opportunity to replace all the worn out steam with diesel or electric traction was missed and BR spent the 1940s/50s recreating the 1930s. In the first instance it would probably have been necessary to buy american EMDs or licence-build them as british loco works took a very long time to get a grip of the newfangled diesel thing, but they were(or at least Southern was) reasonably good at the electric stuff. The manpower and maintenance costs of running steam traction were crippling. BR was created to save the government the cost of compensating the big four for wearing all their stuff out and not fixing it.MrBarry123 said:
I can't see any reason why the national railways can't be run like TfL runs the Tube i.e. have a Transport for Britain (TfB) organisation for the railways. All I seem to read at the moment is that TfL are constantly improving the service provided and my relatively extensive experience (i.e. I use it quite a bit) would, for the majority of the time, confirm this assumption. Why aren't we taking all the experience we've gained through TfL and applying it nationwide to the railway network?
All you can conclude from that is that TfL has a large media budget and spends it justifying it's own existence.It also has more executives paid six-figure sums than any other branch of the civil service. They're not stupid (see above).
I remember BR so I don't want renationalisation. What I would like to see is more competition on each route. The current system creates route monopolies and this must contribute to high fares. In particular XC really take the piss.
Ticketing also needs to be simpler and more transparent. My fare from Birmingham to Manchester is halved if I buy a ticket to Stafford and then Stafford to Manchester, even though I am on the same train in the same seat.
Ticketing also needs to be simpler and more transparent. My fare from Birmingham to Manchester is halved if I buy a ticket to Stafford and then Stafford to Manchester, even though I am on the same train in the same seat.
hidetheelephants said:
MajorProblem said:
Basically the railway was at its zenith at the end of World War Two, BR was born from the big four and then the railway was run into the ground until BRs demise in c1994
I've never read anything that suggests this is remotely true, rather the opposite; the network was commandeered by the state in 1939 and run into the ground with minimal maintenance and whatever emergency repairs necessary as a result of the Luftwaffe's redevelopment work. By 1945 everything was utterly knackered, unfortunately the opportunity to replace all the worn out steam with diesel or electric traction was missed and BR spent the 1940s/50s recreating the 1930s. In the first instance it would probably have been necessary to buy american EMDs or licence-build them as british loco works took a very long time to get a grip of the newfangled diesel thing, but they were(or at least Southern was) reasonably good at the electric stuff. The manpower and maintenance costs of running steam traction were crippling. BR was created to save the government the cost of compensating the big four for wearing all their stuff out and not fixing it.Brunel got the gauge spec right.
Is Corbyn going to change his mind on the EU, because I think nationalising the railways is forbidden.
DIRECTIVE 2012/34/EU OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
There may be more, but at least point 5...
DIRECTIVE 2012/34/EU OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
There may be more, but at least point 5...
EU Directive 2012/34/EU said:
In order to render railway transport efficient and competitive with other modes of transport, Member States should ensure that railway undertakings have the status of independent operators behaving in a commercial manner and adapting to market needs.
Welshbeef said:
Gogoplata said:
I'll look forward to the railways striking like the tube workers during the holidays...
Are things really that bad on the railways? I don't use trains very often, but from my experience I thought the cost was reasonable & the service was fine. For £41 I thought it was more cost effective to get the train from Newcastle to Leeds for the weekend instead of taking the car and paying for petrol & parking.
Reading to Paddington 45ish milesAre things really that bad on the railways? I don't use trains very often, but from my experience I thought the cost was reasonable & the service was fine. For £41 I thought it was more cost effective to get the train from Newcastle to Leeds for the weekend instead of taking the car and paying for petrol & parking.
In Rush hour £50.90 return
Off peak it's I think £28 each.
Kind of makes a family outing to the natural history museum (free) very expensive plus parking the car at the station/taxi down.
grumbledoak said:
All you can conclude from that is that TfL has a large media budget and spends it justifying it's own existence.
It also has more executives paid six-figure sums than any other branch of the civil service. They're not stupid (see above).
Okay, so it tells people of its success however surely that's better than keeping quiet and having no success?It also has more executives paid six-figure sums than any other branch of the civil service. They're not stupid (see above).
Esseesse said:
Is Corbyn going to change his mind on the EU, because I think nationalising the railways is forbidden.
DIRECTIVE 2012/34/EU OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
There may be more, but at least point 5...
What would happen if they just cut any support, made the train companies pay for everything, the economic model would fail, nobody would take up the franchise, they would have to default back to state ownership, he could argue that he was just removing unfair support.DIRECTIVE 2012/34/EU OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
There may be more, but at least point 5...
EU Directive 2012/34/EU said:
In order to render railway transport efficient and competitive with other modes of transport, Member States should ensure that railway undertakings have the status of independent operators behaving in a commercial manner and adapting to market needs.
MajorProblem said:
Seeming as someone's brought up to way people operated in BR, here are some examples of what went on our patch,
Whilst working permanent day shifts - buy a taxi, go taxi driving all night come to work, book on and sleep all day.
One lad had a carpet cleaning business, he used to book on then go carpet cleaning all day, only coming back to book off.
A few lads created a service bay in the workshop so cars can be worked on whilst on afternoon shift.
The electricians would book on and then clear off house bashing all day.
Apprentices were left behind on a Sunday day shift to cook a full Sunday dinner for the returning lads (using only a pot bellied stove and a baby belling) sometimes you had to do fry ups too.
The big "chip vans'" would be used for house removal jobs.
Everyone would be filling cars up off the company.
When tiger tokens where at ESSO they used to leave vans running all the time even with the rear axle off the ground and a brick on the throttle to waste fuel whilst at the depot, the only person to claim all the prizes (I think the top one was a TV) was from our place.
If it was a nice summers day you'd go play football or cricket at the park after a few pints,
Shift changes,
Days would come on at 6am and wake the night shift up to go home.
Afternoons would meet the day shift at the pub to changeover when the day shift has been there since dinner.
Nights would meet the afternoon shift at the working men's club until last orders where the least pissed member of staff would drive the team to the depot for sleeping and await day turn coming on.
sounds like a great place to work Whilst working permanent day shifts - buy a taxi, go taxi driving all night come to work, book on and sleep all day.
One lad had a carpet cleaning business, he used to book on then go carpet cleaning all day, only coming back to book off.
A few lads created a service bay in the workshop so cars can be worked on whilst on afternoon shift.
The electricians would book on and then clear off house bashing all day.
Apprentices were left behind on a Sunday day shift to cook a full Sunday dinner for the returning lads (using only a pot bellied stove and a baby belling) sometimes you had to do fry ups too.
The big "chip vans'" would be used for house removal jobs.
Everyone would be filling cars up off the company.
When tiger tokens where at ESSO they used to leave vans running all the time even with the rear axle off the ground and a brick on the throttle to waste fuel whilst at the depot, the only person to claim all the prizes (I think the top one was a TV) was from our place.
If it was a nice summers day you'd go play football or cricket at the park after a few pints,
Shift changes,
Days would come on at 6am and wake the night shift up to go home.
Afternoons would meet the day shift at the pub to changeover when the day shift has been there since dinner.
Nights would meet the afternoon shift at the working men's club until last orders where the least pissed member of staff would drive the team to the depot for sleeping and await day turn coming on.
They already are nationalised in large parts - Huge amounts of debt sunk in Network Rail (~£40bn?), which is our debt, not private debt, Foreign govt owned TOC's. It's a mess. IEA (see below) suggest that "private rail firms have effectively become subcontractors for the Department for Transport"
Citing working practices from the 70's isn't really an argument against state ownership of rail franchises.
The other option is to privatise it properly...
http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/why-are-rail-subsidies-...
Removing state control of commuter fares (surely state interference in "the market" is a bad thing?
) and not funding infrastructure from the public purse.
All we do now is transfer money to TOC owners/shareholders, and land owners who benefit from infrastructure spending.
Citing working practices from the 70's isn't really an argument against state ownership of rail franchises.
The other option is to privatise it properly...
http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/why-are-rail-subsidies-...
Removing state control of commuter fares (surely state interference in "the market" is a bad thing?
) and not funding infrastructure from the public purse.All we do now is transfer money to TOC owners/shareholders, and land owners who benefit from infrastructure spending.
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