Grammar Schools

[anonymous-user]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Are they? Forget affluent and rich, let's concentrate on poor. Do you think qualifying for free school meals is a reasonable indication of low household income, coupled with lack of savings?

What do you think is a better measure of the numbers of children from poorer backgrounds in a school. Would that be the % on free school meals, or one of the dads posting on the internet that the school is full of kids from all walks of life?

Just make sure you are clear which local authority you are comparing, the rates range from under 5% to over 40%. So if your grammar is 5% in Rutland they are 'elitist' 35% in Tower Hamlets is also 'elitist'.

[Pcgonemad]

W124 said:

turbobloke said:

If the kids can't be brought to the grammars, bring the grammars to the kids. A couple of grammar schools in every major town would go a long way to improving access for working class children considerably.

That simple eh?

Magic money tree? Every town is now going to have 2 schools, one for the council estate and one for the aspiring middle classes? What if the town is not big enough to warrant an extra school? What about the additional time and travel costs of shipping theboffspring 10 miles each way to get them to the nearest grammar?

Is this all free of charge?

My own local 'comp' has an excellent academic record, and achieves this through streaming on ability, an approach which can be taken at all other schools in the country. This is a considerably cheaper option than building new selective schools to buy votes from aspiring middle class voters who can't fund private education but also can't bare to see little Tarquin sharing a classroom with the oiks from the local estate.

[turbobloke]

W124 said:

turbobloke said:

If the kids can't be brought to the grammars, bring the grammars to the kids. A couple of grammar schools in every major town would go a long way to improving access for working class children considerably.

That simple eh?

Not politically simple!

It would certainly increase the % of E6FSM students in grammar school cohorts initially, If demand from very able less well-off families wasn't met at that point then the same drift in house prices and % E6FSM would occur.

As an aside, if the grammar school I linked to yesterday in DfE League Tables is naughty in some way for having only ~4% of E6FSM students, then the entire famly of secondary schools in Wokingham is in big trouble - recently the average % for the entire LA was 4%. On the Isles of Scilly it was 3%. Bucks 5%, Windsor and Maidenhead 6%, Rutland 6%, Central Beds 7%, North Yorks 8% etc.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

garyhun said:

And as has been put forward by the Conservatives, free transport for those that need it up to 15 miles.

Are they scrumping from Corbyn's money tree.

And is this the same Conservatives who struggle to get support for grammars within their own party and have now quietly dropped the whole idea.

[W124]

turbobloke said:

W124 said:

turbobloke said:

If the kids can't be brought to the grammars, bring the grammars to the kids. A couple of grammar schools in every major town would go a long way to improving access for working class children considerably.

That simple eh?

Not politically simple!

It would certainly increase the % of E6FSM students in grammar school cohorts initially, If demand from very able less well-off families wasn't met at that point then the same drift in house prices and % E6FSM would occur.

As an aside, if the grammar school I linked to yesterday in DfE League Tables is naughty in some way for having only ~4% of E6FSM students, then the entire famly of secondary schools in Wokingham is in big trouble - recently the average % for the entire LA was 4%. On the Isles of Scilly it was 3%. Bucks 5%, Windsor and Maidenhead 6%, Rutland 6%, Central Beds 7%, North Yorks 8% etc.

What about the argument that building loads of grammar schools from scratch is eye-swivelling dogmatic insanity? With respect, how can you possibly, possibly contend that the colossal amount of money involved money wouldn't be better spent on hugely improving existing schools? I live in Bucks as it goes - the issues surrounding the 11+ are so complex, so intransigent - the system as it stands here simply does not work. As a means of helping pupils from less well off backgrounds succeed it could not be more ineffective. I lack the written English to express how poorly it achieves that aim. I daresay I'd have to resort to Latin or technical German to really get it across.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

wsurfa said:

Just make sure you are clear which local authority you are comparing, the rates range from under 5% to over 40%. So if your grammar is 5% in Rutland they are 'elitist' 35% in Tower Hamlets is also 'elitist'.

I'm in West London, so certainly no expert on Tower Hamlets. But perhaps you could provide me with a list of all the grammar schools in the borough. I'm guessing, from what little I do know of the area, it won't take you long.

Of course, with grammars accessible to all and providing equal opportunity, I'm sure there are just as many in Tower Hamlets as there are in the Cotswolds.

[turbobloke]

Not sure if this is available online these days, but a good paper to read if you can find it and if you're interested in grammar schools and learning outcomes / social mobility is this:

The Effect of Tracking Students by Ability into Different Schools (Nina Guyon, Eric Maurin and Sandra McNally).

Abstract said:

The tracking of pupils by ability into elite and non-elite schools represents a controversial policy in many countries. There is no consensus on how large the elite track should be and little agreement on the effects of any further increase in its size. This paper presents a natural experiment where the increase in the size of the elite track was followed by a significant improvement in average educational outcomes. This experiment provides a rare opportunity to isolate the overall effect of allowing entry to the elite track for a group that was previously only at the margin of being admitted.

For those who can't locate a copy, the abstract above tells the main part of the findings.

[anonymous-user]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I'm in West London, so certainly no expert on Tower Hamlets. But perhaps you could provide me with a list of all the grammar schools in the borough. I'm guessing, from what little I do know of the area, it won't take you long.

Of course, with grammars accessible to all and providing equal opportunity, I'm sure there are just as many in Tower Hamlets as there are in the Cotswolds.

Perhaps you could keep your toys in your pram when given data relevant to the discussion. Or find it yourself, or would that be a bit too much like work....

[anonymous-user]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

garyhun said:

And as has been put forward by the Conservatives, free transport for those that need it up to 15 miles.

Are they scrumping from Corbyn's money tree.

And is this the same Conservatives who struggle to get support for grammars within their own party and have now quietly dropped the whole idea.

Ah, the old rofl smiley tactic when you don't like the content (especially the bit you've excluded from your quote) and don't want to discuss it.

We're never going to agree on any of this - I'm oot!

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 7th July 10:12

[TwigtheWonderkid]

wsurfa said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I'm in West London, so certainly no expert on Tower Hamlets. But perhaps you could provide me with a list of all the grammar schools in the borough. I'm guessing, from what little I do know of the area, it won't take you long.

Of course, with grammars accessible to all and providing equal opportunity, I'm sure there are just as many in Tower Hamlets as there are in the Cotswolds.

Perhaps you could keep your toys in your pram when given data relevant to the discussion. Or find it yourself, or would that be a bit too much like work....

It's far too much work, so I'm going to go out on a limb, have a wild stab in the dark, and guess........ that there aren't any grammars in L.B.T.H.

[RicksAlfas]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

RicksAlfas said:

I think Twig misses this point because the secondary school he was involved in was a high achieving and successful one in a good catchment area with decent pupils attending. In return they got excellent results. I don't think he can see that in other areas the most successful result a leaving pupil can have is to not be stabbed, pregnant or done for drugs. Twig will claim I've gone all Daily Mail, but sadly that's how it is in many less wealthy urban areas, but I don't think he is aware of it.

Not aware of it....I grew up in it, you clown. But your generalisations about comps in poor inner city areas are largely untrue. They aren't perfect, but finishing school not pregnant, not stabbed and not convicted for drugs offences is not classed as a successful result.

Twig, no need to be rude.

A few pages back you mentioned you were involved in a successful secondary school with high achievements. I took this to be your most recent experience of schools. This is what I was referring to and I didn't think it was representative of many secondary schools today.

[Hol]

[turbobloke]

Dogma, like faith, doesn't respond well if at all to reason and evidence.

[768]

W124 said:

What about the argument that building loads of grammar schools from scratch is eye-swivelling dogmatic insanity? With respect, how can you possibly, possibly contend that the colossal amount of money involved money wouldn't be better spent on hugely improving existing schools?

Removing the ban on grammar schools doesn't cost anything. It doesn't require more children to be educated.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

RicksAlfas said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

RicksAlfas said:

I think Twig misses this point because the secondary school he was involved in was a high achieving and successful one in a good catchment area with decent pupils attending. In return they got excellent results. I don't think he can see that in other areas the most successful result a leaving pupil can have is to not be stabbed, pregnant or done for drugs. Twig will claim I've gone all Daily Mail, but sadly that's how it is in many less wealthy urban areas, but I don't think he is aware of it.

Not aware of it....I grew up in it, you clown. But your generalisations about comps in poor inner city areas are largely untrue. They aren't perfect, but finishing school not pregnant, not stabbed and not convicted for drugs offences is not classed as a successful result.

Twig, no need to be rude.

A few pages back you mentioned you were involved in a successful secondary school with high achievements. I took this to be your most recent experience of schools. This is what I was referring to and I didn't think it was representative of many secondary schools today.

Fair enough, you're not to know of my deprived childhood.

Of course comps vary in quality, as with every other institution. And our local one is in a nice area with a higher than average number of 2 parent families and kids with English as a first language, lower than average numbers of kids on free school meals etc. But even the comps in the less fortunate part of our borough don't set the bar so low as to mean that not getting stabbed or pregnant is an achievement. Your perception is completely flawed.

I do recall a meeting of all borough governors once, where we were looking at schoolgirl pregnancy across the borough, and someone stood up and said "I see XXXX Secondary has had no pregnancies at all in 5 years. How have they achieved this? Can we not all learn something from what they do?" To which someone from XXXX Secondary stood up and said "I think the fact that we're a boys school rather helps our stats."

[turbobloke]

"Of course comps vary in quality, as with every other institution. And our local one is in a nice area with a higher than average number of 2 parent families and kids with English as a first language, lower than average numbers of kids on free school meals etc. But even the comps in the less fortunate part of our borough don't set the bar so low as to mean that not getting stabbed or pregnant is an achievement. Your perception is completely flawed."

Is that perception fatally parochial?!

Ofsted looked at what non-selective and selective schools do for our most able pupils across the country.

They found that far too many comprehensives are failing our brightest kids, and badly. Some schools didn't even know who their most able pupils were.

[RicksAlfas]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

But even the comps in the less fortunate part of our borough don't set the bar so low as to mean that not getting stabbed or pregnant is an achievement. Your perception is completely flawed.

It's only flawed for your borough Twig!!


Do you not have any schools with metal detectors on the doors? Or schools where 90% of the pupils don't have English as their first language? Or where they've closed the sixth form down as there is no demand? You haven't lived!

[TwigtheWonderkid]

RicksAlfas said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

But even the comps in the less fortunate part of our borough don't set the bar so low as to mean that not getting stabbed or pregnant is an achievement. Your perception is completely flawed.

It's only flawed for your borough Twig!!


Do you not have any schools with metal detectors on the doors? Or schools where 90% of the pupils don't have English as their first language? Or where they've closed the sixth form down as there is no demand? You haven't lived!

Like most London boroughs, we have areas of extreme affluence and of grinding poverty. I'm not aware of schools with metal detectors, and we do have schools with high levels of English not being the native language (probably not 90%, but certainly high 70s)

In those schools not getting stabbed or pregnant is not the hallmark of success. All the schools have a % target they want to achieve of 5 GCSEs, grade A-C inc English and maths. That's the main measure of success for any particular school. As for individual pupils, that'll vary. Some kids will have thought to have underachieved with 10 GCSEs, others over achieved with 3 or 4.

In no school, regardless of how deprived the area, would they be celebrating getting a kid thru school without getting stabbed or pregnant. They would be gutted with either of those outcomes.

[wiggy001]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

In no school, regardless of how deprived the area, would they be celebrating getting a kid thru school without getting stabbed or pregnant. They would be gutted with either of those outcomes.

I'm not sure that statement was intended to be taken quite as literally as you seem to be...

[RicksAlfas]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

In no school, regardless of how deprived the area, would they be celebrating getting a kid thru school without getting stabbed or pregnant. They would be gutted with either of those outcomes.

You are right of course, and I was being facetious. But certainly most of the local secondaries around me (West Yorkshire) are more akin to Grange Hill than Hogwarts. Sadly they can have a traumatic effect on "nice" kids, with bullying for "speaking proper" being common. Innit. Streaming doesn't isolate the kids in the playgrounds and bus stops, only the classroom.