Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[ninja-lewis]

Countdown said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Well at an initial £350K of taxpayer funded training, a way forward would be for Junior Doctors to sign a 15 year handcuffs contract with a sliding agreement to repay costs to the taxpayer if they leave early. Also any additional training costs should be added to the pot.

That's certainly what will happen if they don't drop their selfish unrealistic sense of entitlement (or rather stop letting themselves being used as political pawns).

We don't put handcuffs on any other University training. Why are doctors special?

Conversely, we do require a Return of Service from service personnel. And many employers will use training agreements that require training costs to be refunded by the employee if they leave within a set period of completing the course.

[IanA2]

sawman said:

IanA2 said:

Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw.

whats a good standing application?
apart from scotland and wales, where are they heading? Europe or colonies?

It's a certificate that means your ok to practise out-with the purview of the GMC, so abroad basically. Destinations folks are talking about are South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

[PRTVR]

sawman said:

IanA2 said:

Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw.

whats a good standing application?
apart from scotland and wales, where are they heading? Europe or colonies?

So the NHS pays to train them and then they can just leave ? Should they not be locked in for a few years to pay back some of the investment ?

[sawman]

IanA2 said:

It's a certificate that means your ok to practise out-with the purview of the GMC, so abroad basically. Destinations folks are talking about are South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

Cool, good for them, pity the UK will lose so many bright, dedicated professionals. and the hard won skills they have developed. Presumably their bigger challenge will be continuing their specialist training in their new locale.

I did some work with health professionals regulation in Canada a few years ago, and I was surprised how sniffy the Canadians were about UK medical qualifications (in the developed parts of the country at least)

[IanA2]

sawman said:

IanA2 said:

It's a certificate that means your ok to practise out-with the purview of the GMC, so abroad basically. Destinations folks are talking about are South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

Cool, good for them, pity the UK will lose so many bright, dedicated professionals. and the hard won skills they have developed. Presumably their bigger challenge will be continuing their specialist training in their new locale.

I did some work with health professionals regulation in Canada a few years ago, and I was surprised how sniffy the Canadians were about UK medical qualifications (in the developed parts of the country at least)

Yes, there are many who say the training is not nearly as rigorous as it used to be, certainly clinical exposure seems to be much reduced and it seems that some CCT's are getting awarded sooner than they used to be.

[IanA2]

PRTVR said:

sawman said:

IanA2 said:

Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw.

whats a good standing application?
apart from scotland and wales, where are they heading? Europe or colonies?

So the NHS pays to train them and then they can just leave ? Should they not be locked in for a few years to pay back some of the investment ?

While your at it, why not ban emigration absolutely, after all people are born in state funded hospitals, educated (in the main, in state funded schools. So nobody should be allowed to leave the UK at all. Do you know how bloody stupid that is.....?

[PRTVR]

IanA2 said:

PRTVR said:

sawman said:

IanA2 said:

Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw.

whats a good standing application?
apart from scotland and wales, where are they heading? Europe or colonies?

So the NHS pays to train them and then they can just leave ? Should they not be locked in for a few years to pay back some of the investment ?

While your at it, why not ban emigration absolutely, after all people are born in state funded hospitals, educated (in the main, in state funded schools. So nobody should be allowed to leave the UK at all. Do you know how bloody stupid that is.....?

Stupid ? My son has just completed a course paid for by his company, as part of the agreement he has to remain with the company for a fixed length of time, why should a company not want to see a return on its investment?

[IanA2]

PRTVR said:

IanA2 said:

PRTVR said:

sawman said:

IanA2 said:

Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw.

whats a good standing application?
apart from scotland and wales, where are they heading? Europe or colonies?

So the NHS pays to train them and then they can just leave ? Should they not be locked in for a few years to pay back some of the investment ?

While your at it, why not ban emigration absolutely, after all people are born in state funded hospitals, educated (in the main, in state funded schools. So nobody should be allowed to leave the UK at all. Do you know how bloody stupid that is.....?

Stupid ? My son has just completed a course paid for by his company, as part of the agreement he has to remain with the company for a fixed length of time, why should a company not want to see a return on its investment?

Did the company pay his school fees and underwrite his maternity costs? Doubt it....

[mph1977]

REALIST123 said:

mph1977 said:

Europa1 said:

Countdown said:

sidicks said:

So misplacing a cannula is not a fault of the person inserting the cannula but instead is the fault of them not getting enough cash.

Hmm....

Yes it can be. Quite easily.

A lack of funds can result in lack of recruitment and retention of suitably qualified and experienced staff which can cause problems like the ones mentioned.

Inserting a cannula is hardly the most technically complicated medical procedure.

in fact it's a basic psychomotor skill that has been over politicised by none -medical staff groups ( nurses, HCAs , A+E Ambulance staff), the skills and knowledge is in the underpinning knowledge ...

you can teach anyone with reasonable coordination to cannulate some fairly safe locations in half an hour or so one -to - one , the knoweldge comes with the why and when and in being able to insert them into 'none standard' and/or 'higher risk ' sites ...

As they say, "There's none so blind....."

is that an observation aobut yourself (un)REALIST ...

[PRTVR]

IanA2 said:

PRTVR said:

IanA2 said:

PRTVR said:

sawman said:

IanA2 said:

Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw.

whats a good standing application?
apart from scotland and wales, where are they heading? Europe or colonies?

So the NHS pays to train them and then they can just leave ? Should they not be locked in for a few years to pay back some of the investment ?

While your at it, why not ban emigration absolutely, after all people are born in state funded hospitals, educated (in the main, in state funded schools. So nobody should be allowed to leave the UK at all. Do you know how bloody stupid that is.....?

Stupid ? My son has just completed a course paid for by his company, as part of the agreement he has to remain with the company for a fixed length of time, why should a company not want to see a return on its investment?

Did the company pay his school fees and underwrite his maternity costs? Doubt it....

An I see, you are trying to link doctors training to the whole social system, but why does it have to extend to doctor training? If the people are not prepared to make a commitment why should they be trained?

[mph1977]

sidicks said:

Scuffers said:

or the cripplingly expensive PFI deals...

Just out of interest which is currently doing better, the minimally privatised heath service in Wales or the marginally more privatised health service in the UK?

Neither of which really has much to do with PFI ... a lot of the wailing and gnashing from the loony left about PFI works o nthe basis that assests do not need maintaiance and repairs ( as they thought with 'owned' NHS estate for a classic example).

the wailing and gnashing over PFI from Unison and Unite is the risk that it might mean they will find it harder to whole the nation to ransom

[IanA2]

PRTVR said:

IanA2 said:

PRTVR said:

IanA2 said:

PRTVR said:

sawman said:

IanA2 said:

Apparently good standing applications are running at 200 pw.

whats a good standing application?
apart from scotland and wales, where are they heading? Europe or colonies?

So the NHS pays to train them and then they can just leave ? Should they not be locked in for a few years to pay back some of the investment ?

While your at it, why not ban emigration absolutely, after all people are born in state funded hospitals, educated (in the main, in state funded schools. So nobody should be allowed to leave the UK at all. Do you know how bloody stupid that is.....?

Stupid ? My son has just completed a course paid for by his company, as part of the agreement he has to remain with the company for a fixed length of time, why should a company not want to see a return on its investment?

Did the company pay his school fees and underwrite his maternity costs? Doubt it....

An I see, you are trying to link doctors training to the whole social system, but why does it have to extend to doctor training? If the people are not prepared to make a commitment why should they be trained?

Incomprehensible twaddle. I'm out on this one. Paddle on.

[sawman]

PRTVR said:

So the NHS pays to train them and then they can just leave ? Should they not be locked in for a few years to pay back some of the investment ?

The medics complete a degree, just the same as every other university graduate, are you going to ban all of them from ever leaving the country too?

whilst the medics undertake their further training (ie after they have their degree, but cannot practice independently) they are doing a job of work just like many other new graduates in industry, are you going to say these people also need to stay with their first post graduate employer for their whole career, even when their employer decides to play fast and loose with their working terms and conditions?

[968]

mph1977 said:

Neither of which really has much to do with PFI ... a lot of the wailing and gnashing from the loony left about PFI works o nthe basis that assests do not need maintaiance and repairs ( as they thought with 'owned' NHS estate for a classic example).

the wailing and gnashing over PFI from Unison and Unite is the risk that it might mean they will find it harder to whole the nation to ransom

Utter bks. The complaint about pfi, which is entirely legitimate, is that the amounts owed ultimately is far more than reasonable due to ridiculous interest charges. In addition many pfi hospitals have been tied into absurd and possibly extortionate maintenance and logistics contracts with the private companies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/877959...

[IroningMan]

I seem to recall the Army wanting a six-year post-qualification service commitment from those it trained to fly helicopters - in any event I'm sure it wouldn't be a unique situation were it to apply to doctors.

[968]

IroningMan said:

I seem to recall the Army wanting a six-year post-qualification service commitment from those it trained to fly helicopters - in any event I'm sure it wouldn't be a unique situation were it to apply to doctors.

Yes that'll help morale. You are forced to accept a totally unfair contract that amounts to a big pay cut and work longer hours with less safeguards and you cannot leave the country. I think 20% of graduates don't complete foundation training already and a significant number don't complete training and leave medicine because of the difficulty of their jobs. Given the enormous staff shortage and the impending cliff we will fall off when possibly 20000 GPs retire in the next few years, along with a large number of senior consultants, how will the service be staffed do you think?

[PRTVR]

sawman said:

PRTVR said:

So the NHS pays to train them and then they can just leave ? Should they not be locked in for a few years to pay back some of the investment ?

The medics complete a degree, just the same as every other university graduate, are you going to ban all of them from ever leaving the country too?

whilst the medics undertake their further training (ie after they have their degree, but cannot practice independently) they are doing a job of work just like many other new graduates in industry, are you going to say these people also need to stay with their first post graduate employer for their whole career, even when their employer decides to play fast and loose with their working terms and conditions?

A degree is becoming the norm in a lot of jobs that it once did not, is it unrealistic to expect a return on the money spent ? With my son it was part of a contract he signed, he knew what he was letting himself into, a fixed length of time,not his whole career, I personnel did not see anything wrong with it. As has been pointed out the army use such a model for pilots, why not doctors.

[IanA2]

968 said:

IroningMan said:

I seem to recall the Army wanting a six-year post-qualification service commitment from those it trained to fly helicopters - in any event I'm sure it wouldn't be a unique situation were it to apply to doctors.

Yes that'll help morale. You are forced to accept a totally unfair contract that amounts to a big pay cut and work longer hours with less safeguards and you cannot leave the country. I think 20% of graduates don't complete foundation training already and a significant number don't complete training and leave medicine because of the difficulty of their jobs. Given the enormous staff shortage and the impending cliff we will fall off when possibly 20000 GPs retire in the next few years, along with a large number of senior consultants, how will the service be staffed do you think?

I know several quite senior naval officers. In discussions with them they were open mouthed with astonishment at the stories they were told about the behaviours of some NHS trust employers. We came to the conclusion that the Royal Navy was a very significantly fairer and much better employer.

Unless you've experienced the thugs and spivs that run some trusts, you really cannot understand just how execrable they are. They would make second hand double-glazing salesmen look like honest professionals. Really.

[sawman]

PRTVR said:

A degree is becoming the norm in a lot of jobs that it once did not, is it unrealistic to expect a return on the money spent ? With my son it was part of a contract he signed, he knew what he was letting himself into, a fixed length of time,not his whole career, I personnel did not see anything wrong with it. As has been pointed out the army use such a model for pilots, why not doctors.

just to be clear, the medics are not paid during their degree, they are just like all the rest of the impoverished students taking up space in starbucks, they will still have to payback student loans and university fees one they are earning.

they are not sponsored by any employer, so I fail to understand how they can be locked into anything.

Edited by sawman on Friday 12th February 23:01

[ucb]

I was told today that more than 50% of foundation doctors do not enter into further training programs and that medical school applications have fallen by more than 10% this year.