Discussion
ATG said:
The idea that the future really is ever closer union is rather at odds with the wishes of almost every member state's population. Do you think the French want to be less French, for example?
You think that the populous really has any real say in the vanity project? IIRC at least one country voted not to ratify a treaty and were told to vote again until they got the right answer... deomcracy 
what a quaint notion 
Rovinghawk said:
How about those who hand down EU orders being accountable to someone?
Well "EU Orders" kind of indicates that your mind is closed to rational explanation on this point since it is filled with images of Brussels Gauleiters but if you are referring to the Commission, the Commissioners are nominated by individual member states, chosen by the constituent EU member states and their appointments are reviewed by the EU Parliament. They do not hand down "orders" they propose legislation which is reviewed and voted on by EU member governments and the EU Parliament.The Commission is a civil service for Europe, in effect.
You could have a more directly democratic system but then you don't want it. You just want out.
don4l said:
Stop making stuff up. You must think that we are a bunch of ignorant thickos if you think that we are going to swallow this drivel.
Look up the WTO, and what is has achieved over the past 20 years.
The world is slowly, but surely, becoming a free trade area - a bit like the one we thought we were joining in 1973.
But it doesn't compensate for being part of the Single Market, or having the greater negotiating power of the EU. And if you want access to that, you either pay tariffs or sign up to 90% of EU legislation by joining the EEA. Look up the WTO, and what is has achieved over the past 20 years.
The world is slowly, but surely, becoming a free trade area - a bit like the one we thought we were joining in 1973.
Alex said:
If I disagree with an EU directive, whom do I vote out? However I vote in the national election or the EU election, nothing will change.
There's your democratic deficit.
If you are a Labour supporter, and you vote in a Conservative constituency, you may as well stay in bed on polling day - ditto if you're a Tory in Glasgow. That's a thumping deficit in our own system but the Eurosceptics don't seem to want to address that one. Which is why I doubt that this "commitment to democracy" has anything to do with the arguments for Brexit.There's your democratic deficit.
Bluebarge said:
If you are a Labour supporter, and you vote in a Conservative constituency, you may as well stay in bed on polling day - ditto if you're a Tory in Glasgow. That's a thumping deficit in our own system but the Eurosceptics don't seem to want to address that one. Which is why I doubt that this "commitment to democracy" has anything to do with the arguments for Brexit.
Excellent, deflect the question. I don't believe the discussion was about whether we are happy with the current UK Parliamentary electoral process.CaptainSlow said:
Bluebarge said:
If you are a Labour supporter, and you vote in a Conservative constituency, you may as well stay in bed on polling day - ditto if you're a Tory in Glasgow. That's a thumping deficit in our own system but the Eurosceptics don't seem to want to address that one. Which is why I doubt that this "commitment to democracy" has anything to do with the arguments for Brexit.
Excellent, deflect the question. I don't believe the discussion was about whether we are happy with the current UK Parliamentary electoral process.Besides, the idea that sovereign states always get their own way is nonsense. In or out of the EU our Govt. would have to make messy compromises which some electors would be unhappy with. That's just life. Ever since this country has existed it has been in and out of alliances and forced to compromise. The idea that we could achieve complete independence is a pipe-dream.
irocfan said:
ATG said:
The idea that the future really is ever closer union is rather at odds with the wishes of almost every member state's population. Do you think the French want to be less French, for example?
You think that the populous really has any real say in the vanity project? IIRC at least one country voted not to ratify a treaty and were told to vote again until they got the right answer... deomcracy what a quaint notion you're right. We live in a dictatorship. Oh hang on, no we don't. AJS- said:
The Commission simply is not a civil service for Europe. It's the executive branch of the government of the country called the European Union. The country we were never asked if we wanted to be a part of.
quite right.Anybody that think this is the case needs to go back and check again.
The EU commission is nothing like the civil service, they define policy, direction, put up legislation, etc etc, they are the executive in the same way our cabinet is the executive of the UK, the difference being we vote for the party/cabinet/MP's, the commissioners are appointed.
CaptainSlow said:
Esseesse said:
Our continued membership will depend on the continuing assent of Parliament. Just because there is a 'stay' vote on one day doesn't mean the British electorate cannot then vote for a party who pledges to withdraw from the EU afterwards.
Sadly this isn't the way it works. The UK voted for a party that promised a referendum in 2010 but didn't get one due to horse trading an election pledge the Tory leadership didn't really want tohonour to the Lib Dems. Likewise ~4 million people voted for this single issue in last year's GE and got 1 seat. UK politics is structured to favour the status quo, being able to vote to leave in the future will be almost impossible. Edited by Esseesse on Tuesday 1st December 12:52
IMO it is the way it works, it's just that not enough have voted for a party that pledges to leave, yet. If such a party never achieves a majority because the electorate don't care then so be it.
Bluebarge said:
don4l said:
Stop making stuff up. You must think that we are a bunch of ignorant thickos if you think that we are going to swallow this drivel.
Look up the WTO, and what is has achieved over the past 20 years.
The world is slowly, but surely, becoming a free trade area - a bit like the one we thought we were joining in 1973.
But it doesn't compensate for being part of the Single Market, or having the greater negotiating power of the EU. And if you want access to that, you either pay tariffs or sign up to 90% of EU legislation by joining the EEA. Look up the WTO, and what is has achieved over the past 20 years.
The world is slowly, but surely, becoming a free trade area - a bit like the one we thought we were joining in 1973.
I don't want access to the negotiating power of the EU. I want Britain to negotiate the best deals for Britain. The current system all to often acts against our interests. The UK has been outvoted in Brussels more than any other member state. Do some research instead of just making stuff up.
Equally, why would I worry about tariffs? You do realise that we run a trade deficit with Europe? We have a surplus with the rest of the globe.
We are far more important to Europe than Europe is to the UK.
AJS- said:
ATG said:
He's accountable to Parliament. How much more democratic do you want?
I want our laws to be drafted, debated and voted upon by our elected representatives in parliament. Not traded for a whole load of other things in some CoM meeting.The EU is at heart a group of independent states that have agreed to abide by a set of treaties and which continues to make big decisions as a group of independent states.
Unless you think we should never be bound by any international treaty, I can't see why you'd single out EU treaties as a problem in principle. Unless of course you were just casting around for an argument to try to justify an instinctive dislike of the EU.
ATG said:
Could it be because it's complete b
ks?
so, tell me why it's bks?ks as you put it?we are the second biggest economy in the EU (only just behind Germany), we are THE financial centre for the whole of not just Europe, we are the second biggest contributor to the EU budget and we are a massive consumer nation to the rest of the EU.
if/when we pull out, just how much of a financial hit are Germany/France/etc going to be able to stand?
Bluebarge said:
If you are a Labour supporter, and you vote in a Conservative constituency, you may as well stay in bed on polling day - ditto if you're a Tory in Glasgow. That's a thumping deficit in our own system but the Eurosceptics don't seem to want to address that one. Which is why I doubt that this "commitment to democracy" has anything to do with the arguments for Brexit.
Not necessarily true. Labour are about to lose the safe seat of Oldham to UKIP.
Bluebarge said:
if you are referring to the Commission, the Commissioners are nominated by individual member states, chosen by the constituent EU member states and their appointments are reviewed by the EU Parliament. They do not hand down "orders" they propose legislation which is reviewed and voted on by EU member governments and the EU Parliament.
To whom are they accountable?Edited by Rovinghawk on Tuesday 1st December 14:54
Scuffers said:
ATG said:
Could it be because it's complete bks?
so, tell me why it's bks?ks as you put it?we are the second biggest economy in the EU (only just behind Germany), we are THE financial centre for the whole of not just Europe, we are the second biggest contributor to the EU budget and we are a massive consumer nation to the rest of the EU.
if/when we pull out, just how much of a financial hit are Germany/France/etc going to be able to stand?
It's b
ks for the reasons stated above - only 10% of the rest of the EU's trade is with us, plus if you want to join the EEA you have to PAY for the privilege in hard cash - we are not likely to end up contributing much less in the EEA than in the EU.Plus the City could decamp to the Eurozone tomorrow and, as other posters have pointed out, probably would. You can't have an international market-place without free movement of people and capital, and Frankfurt has been eyeing the City's position for years - this would be its chance.
As to state's contributions to the EU Budget, they are pretty small beer in the scheme of things and the hit would have to be shared out - they'd manage fine, particularly once they've trousered our EEA joining fee and annual subscription.
Anyway, really am gone now. Carry on wibbling
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