Meanwhile in Poland
Discussion
At least KrissKross is honest about basing decisions on anger rather than on information and analysis. It is odd that, in our personal lives, we often take the view that we shouldn't act on the basis of anger, but anger is said to be a legitimate basis for making very large decisions about a country's future path.
As for being wrong, I am often wrong, but I don't automatically assume that the many credible organisations that have analysed the effects of migration are wrong.
If you take on the benefits of a single market and customs union, then accepting a few scumbags may be a price that you pay for that. In the pre-referendum debate the focus was all on the bad stuff and not on the good stuff. Now we are told by some that we can have all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff. Realism appears absent from both positions.
As for being wrong, I am often wrong, but I don't automatically assume that the many credible organisations that have analysed the effects of migration are wrong.
If you take on the benefits of a single market and customs union, then accepting a few scumbags may be a price that you pay for that. In the pre-referendum debate the focus was all on the bad stuff and not on the good stuff. Now we are told by some that we can have all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff. Realism appears absent from both positions.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 7th August 18:08
Breadvan72 said:
accepting a few scumbags may be a price that you pay for that.
I appreciated the comments, I think. Facts and figures are all good but we are human and we don't just make choices out of a calculator.There should be no scumbags allowed into our country, and the ones here captured doing bad things should be immediately expelled. Even taking a few home grown with them.
If you did this a huge percentage of the population would not have voted for brexit.
That shows the tail wagging the dog. On no calculation other than one of kneejerk them and us-ism (and that's not a calculation, that's an impulse) does the impact of a few crims floating around outweigh the benefits of membership of a large trading bloc that doubles as a mechanism for peace and stability across an historically warlike and unstable continent. Pulling up the drawbridge and lapsing into enfeebled isolationism isn't going to solve the scumbag problem. It may make the problem worse, as poor people may be more likely to behave in fractious ways than un-poor people.
KrissKross gains more points for honesty. Unlike some, he is pretty open about his concern being with Johnny Foreigner. Others pretend that they are all pious about democracy (that's going well, eh? Henry VIII clause bonanza!),. It's refreshing to see a bit of honest xenophobia.
KrissKross gains more points for honesty. Unlike some, he is pretty open about his concern being with Johnny Foreigner. Others pretend that they are all pious about democracy (that's going well, eh? Henry VIII clause bonanza!),. It's refreshing to see a bit of honest xenophobia.
Breadvan72 said:
That shows the tail wagging the dog. On no calculation other than one of kneejerk them and us-ism (and that's not a calculation, that's an impulse) does the impact of a few crims floating around outweigh the benefits of membership of a large trading bloc that doubles as a mechanism for peace and stability across an historically warlike and unstable continent. Pulling up the drawbridge and lapsing into enfeebled isolationism isn't going to solve the scumbag problem. It may make the problem worse, as poor people may be more likely to behave in fractious ways than un-poor people.
KrissKross gains more points for honesty. Unlike some, he is pretty open about his concern being with Johnny Foreigner. Others pretend that they are all pious about democracy (that's going well, eh? Henry VIII clause bonanza!),. It's refreshing to see a bit of honest xenophobia.
Ah,your true colours come out,basically its a remainer rant.KrissKross gains more points for honesty. Unlike some, he is pretty open about his concern being with Johnny Foreigner. Others pretend that they are all pious about democracy (that's going well, eh? Henry VIII clause bonanza!),. It's refreshing to see a bit of honest xenophobia.
Not a rant - an evidence based expression of a view that you happen to disagree with . You call it a rant because it offends your faith based position.
Stepping back from general Brexit points to Poland points, one of the things that the EU is built on is the idea of constitutional government and the rule of law. That is why the Polish Government's steps towards Government control of the Courts are a matter that the EU might get involved in.
Stepping back from general Brexit points to Poland points, one of the things that the EU is built on is the idea of constitutional government and the rule of law. That is why the Polish Government's steps towards Government control of the Courts are a matter that the EU might get involved in.
The EU leadership was arrogant. It should have given Cameron some small thing to take back home in early 2016, but it sent him home empty handed.
Some small adjustment on free movement might have been a good idea, but arrogance prevailed on both sides. Now it appears that realism has dawned on the EU side, but fantasy and pie in the sky recipes continue to grip the UK side.
Some small adjustment on free movement might have been a good idea, but arrogance prevailed on both sides. Now it appears that realism has dawned on the EU side, but fantasy and pie in the sky recipes continue to grip the UK side.
Breadvan72 said:
The EU leadership was arrogant. It should have given Cameron some small thing to take back home in early 2016, but it sent him home empty handed.
Some small adjustment on free movement might have been a good idea, but arrogance prevailed on both sides. Now it appears that realism has dawned on the EU side, but fantasy and pie in the sky recipes continue to grip the UK side.
Realism will only prevail when heads roll.Some small adjustment on free movement might have been a good idea, but arrogance prevailed on both sides. Now it appears that realism has dawned on the EU side, but fantasy and pie in the sky recipes continue to grip the UK side.
Breadvan72 said:
The EU leadership was arrogant. It should have given Cameron some small thing to take back home in early 2016, but it sent him home empty handed.
Some small adjustment on free movement might have been a good idea, but arrogance prevailed on both sides. Now it appears that realism has dawned on the EU side, but fantasy and pie in the sky recipes continue to grip the UK side.
You call it fantasy and pie in the sky because it offends your faith based position.Some small adjustment on free movement might have been a good idea, but arrogance prevailed on both sides. Now it appears that realism has dawned on the EU side, but fantasy and pie in the sky recipes continue to grip the UK side.
We managed for many years without Brussels thankyou very much.
Breadvan72 said:
...
If you take on the benefits of a single market and customs union, then accepting a few scumbags may be a price that you pay for that. In the pre-referendum debate the focus was all on the bad stuff and not on the good stuff. Now we are told by some that we can have all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff. Realism appears absent from both positions....
Nobody, as far as I've seen, has said that we can have all the good and none of the bad. If you take on the benefits of a single market and customs union, then accepting a few scumbags may be a price that you pay for that. In the pre-referendum debate the focus was all on the bad stuff and not on the good stuff. Now we are told by some that we can have all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff. Realism appears absent from both positions....
Equally, we have strong trading with a number of foreign nations seemingly without the volume of miscreants. Yes we don't have a customs union with them...but then as trade seems to do quite well, maybe that's one argument for a customs union (certainly in the way the EU have implemented it) being unnecessary.
Breadvan72 said:
That shows the tail wagging the dog. On no calculation other than one of kneejerk them and us-ism (and that's not a calculation, that's an impulse) does the impact of a few crims floating around outweigh the benefits of membership of a large trading bloc that doubles as a mechanism for peace and stability across an historically warlike and unstable continent. Pulling up the drawbridge and lapsing into enfeebled isolationism isn't going to solve the scumbag problem. It may make the problem worse, as poor people may be more likely to behave in fractious ways than un-poor people.
KrissKross gains more points for honesty. Unlike some, he is pretty open about his concern being with Johnny Foreigner. Others pretend that they are all pious about democracy (that's going well, eh? Henry VIII clause bonanza!),. It's refreshing to see a bit of honest xenophobia.
I'm not entirely sure why you think people have and are hiding xenophobia. Or who (other than KrissKross) you think is so afflicted. You're just edging into fairly typical Remain debating unfortunately.KrissKross gains more points for honesty. Unlike some, he is pretty open about his concern being with Johnny Foreigner. Others pretend that they are all pious about democracy (that's going well, eh? Henry VIII clause bonanza!),. It's refreshing to see a bit of honest xenophobia.
Ditto on the "peace and stability" angle. Ditto "the poor will be worse off". Ditto the generalisation on what membership of the EU does and doesn't outweigh. Ditto us wanting to be "isolationist". Etc.
Not wanting people here who cause societal issues is not xenophobic. Not wanting to take the "gross negatives" out of the "net positive" impacts isn't either. And neither are solely linked to our relationship with the EU even.
Breadvan72 said:
That shows the tail wagging the dog. On no calculation other than one of kneejerk them and us-ism (and that's not a calculation, that's an impulse) does the impact of a few crims floating around outweigh the benefits of membership of a large trading bloc that doubles as a mechanism for peace and stability across an historically warlike and unstable continent. Pulling up the drawbridge and lapsing into enfeebled isolationism isn't going to solve the scumbag problem. It may make the problem worse, as poor people may be more likely to behave in fractious ways than un-poor people.
KrissKross gains more points for honesty. Unlike some, he is pretty open about his concern being with Johnny Foreigner. Others pretend that they are all pious about democracy (that's going well, eh? Henry VIII clause bonanza!),. It's refreshing to see a bit of honest xenophobia.
Ahh, BV, if only it was just 'a large trading bloc that doubles for a mechanism for peace' and not what it has become. KrissKross gains more points for honesty. Unlike some, he is pretty open about his concern being with Johnny Foreigner. Others pretend that they are all pious about democracy (that's going well, eh? Henry VIII clause bonanza!),. It's refreshing to see a bit of honest xenophobia.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 7th August 23:30
Yet another rift between Poland and the EU.
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union's executive arm has asked the European Court of Justice to speed up a case against Poland over logging in its ancient forest, which has continued despite an order by the bloc's top court to stop immediately, an official said. The ECJ told Poland 10 days ago to halt the large-scale logging in the Bialowieza forest, a UNESCO World Heritage site and home to the largest herd of European bison, unique birds and insects.
Meanwhile they appear to be trolling the EU over the whole migrant thing
POLAND has announced that it is willing to accept migrants from Europe, but not the Middle East or Africa.
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union's executive arm has asked the European Court of Justice to speed up a case against Poland over logging in its ancient forest, which has continued despite an order by the bloc's top court to stop immediately, an official said. The ECJ told Poland 10 days ago to halt the large-scale logging in the Bialowieza forest, a UNESCO World Heritage site and home to the largest herd of European bison, unique birds and insects.
Meanwhile they appear to be trolling the EU over the whole migrant thing
POLAND has announced that it is willing to accept migrants from Europe, but not the Middle East or Africa.
BlackLabel said:
Yet another rift between Poland and the EU.
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union's executive arm has asked the European Court of Justice to speed up a case against Poland over logging in its ancient forest, which has continued despite an order by the bloc's top court to stop immediately, an official said. The ECJ told Poland 10 days ago to halt the large-scale logging in the Bialowieza forest, a UNESCO World Heritage site and home to the largest herd of European bison, unique birds and insects.
Meanwhile they appear to be trolling the EU over the whole migrant thing
POLAND has announced that it is willing to accept migrants from Europe, but not the Middle East or Africa.
On that latter one, you've got to love the Poles. They are ace at being dry.BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union's executive arm has asked the European Court of Justice to speed up a case against Poland over logging in its ancient forest, which has continued despite an order by the bloc's top court to stop immediately, an official said. The ECJ told Poland 10 days ago to halt the large-scale logging in the Bialowieza forest, a UNESCO World Heritage site and home to the largest herd of European bison, unique birds and insects.
Meanwhile they appear to be trolling the EU over the whole migrant thing
POLAND has announced that it is willing to accept migrants from Europe, but not the Middle East or Africa.
On the former, I'll add it to the list of good things about the EU (maybe I made a heinous error voting leave after all. Stonehenge, Bath and Kew Gardens could all be in grave danger. What have I done
)...assuming they get the Poles to stop. What enforcement powers do UNESCO have? (I suspect "not many" in reality).Edited by Murph7355 on Tuesday 8th August 07:28
REALIST123 said:
Ahh, BV, if only it was just 'a large trading bloc that doubles for a mechanism for peace' and not what it has become.
As a trading bloc it is already irrelevant. The world has turned.And the "peace in our bulls
t" claim isn't true either; that's been provided by NATO and US troops on German soil. They are just attempting to take the credit for things they didn't do, as politicians are wont to do.All it really is, is a political power structure that heavily favours the elite and gives little voice to the people. Habsburgian?
Murph7355 said:
BlackLabel said:
Yet another rift between Poland and the EU.
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union's executive arm has asked the European Court of Justice to speed up a case against Poland over logging in its ancient forest, which has continued despite an order by the bloc's top court to stop immediately, an official said. The ECJ told Poland 10 days ago to halt the large-scale logging in the Bialowieza forest, a UNESCO World Heritage site and home to the largest herd of European bison, unique birds and insects.
Meanwhile they appear to be trolling the EU over the whole migrant thing
POLAND has announced that it is willing to accept migrants from Europe, but not the Middle East or Africa.
On that latter won, you've got to love the Poles. They are ace at being dry.BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union's executive arm has asked the European Court of Justice to speed up a case against Poland over logging in its ancient forest, which has continued despite an order by the bloc's top court to stop immediately, an official said. The ECJ told Poland 10 days ago to halt the large-scale logging in the Bialowieza forest, a UNESCO World Heritage site and home to the largest herd of European bison, unique birds and insects.
Meanwhile they appear to be trolling the EU over the whole migrant thing
POLAND has announced that it is willing to accept migrants from Europe, but not the Middle East or Africa.
On the former, I'll add it to the list of good things about the EU (maybe I made a heinous error voting leave after all. Stonehenge, Bath and Kew Gardens could all be in grave danger. What have I done
)...assuming they get the Poles to stop. What enforcement powers do UNESCO have? (I suspect "not many" in reality).On UNESCO, once read a piece, which I suspected was purely for the clickbait article behind it, covering a UNESCO inspection visit to some hideous place. Christ, hundreds of the buggers, made a FIFA or IOC delegation look like a small family gathering.
Reason for reading it was the clickbait which listed the 20 dodgiest UNESCO world heritage sites to see if I'd visited any. By hell there were some munters, and quite a few in Sweden. One I managed to visit twice, neither occasion out of choice, the disused Falun copper mine. The second visit's most positive features were first the company, female and attractive obvs, plus in a very British way the refreshing hot beverage and slice of cake.
John145 said:
There's a curious realisation that breadvan is making, perhaps without realising.
That is: if the EU acted on our concerns we wouldn't have voted to leave.
Who'd have thought?
Yep.That is: if the EU acted on our concerns we wouldn't have voted to leave.
Who'd have thought?
Breadvan72 said:
The EU leadership was arrogant. It should have given Cameron some small thing to take back home in early 2016, but it sent him home empty handed.
Some small adjustment on free movement might have been a good idea, but arrogance prevailed on both sides. Now it appears that realism has dawned on the EU side, but fantasy and pie in the sky recipes continue to grip the UK side.
I think you and John145 and myself too are in broad agreement.Some small adjustment on free movement might have been a good idea, but arrogance prevailed on both sides. Now it appears that realism has dawned on the EU side, but fantasy and pie in the sky recipes continue to grip the UK side.
It's hard to criticise those who voted on gut reaction, rather than the raw data, not least because the impact of migration - EU or otherwise - on the individual is not represented by the cold numbers, but also that, as we know, numbers tend to indicate mere averages.
Looking at Poland - as well as Hungary and the Czech Republic - it's clear that similar issues to those which acted as a catalyst for Brexit, are also at play in other nations. As we all know, the EU could and should have made more effort to manage the whole migrant crisis. It should have better integrated security and intelligence - it's tragic sad that it took an event like the Bataclan to instigate this - and given nations and citizens more reassurance.
Some of the posts above suggest ignorance of postwar economic history (and indeed of history more widely). The UK was in a rocky state in the decades after WW2, and therefore applied repeatedly to join the then EEC. It is all very well saying that the UK had been OK on its own before then, but in fact it had not been on its own since its rise to political and economic power (from the C17 onwards). The Empire, however, was a busted flush by the 1960s, and the no longer powerful Britain alone was not a viable proposition.
I am sorry to say that few Brexiters whom I have discussed the subject with appear to have taken the time to inform themselves as to (a) history, or (b) economics. I have met a couple of well informed Brexiters. They say that they accept that leaving the EU is economically dumb, but they also say that they will put up with this because of ideas of sovereignty and democracy. Even that argument may have an element of xenophobia embedded within it - the point being a preference for Government (even mis-Government) from London over partial Government (mis-Government or not) from Brussels, Strasbourg, and Luxembourg. The argument is sometimes put on the basis that we want to be misruled by our own idiots and not by someone else's idiots. The most honest well informed Brexiter whom I know now accepts that the plan is going wrong because there is less democracy and not more, and weaker Government and not stronger. The other one holds firm to the idea that it is OK to be economically diminished and ruled by a really bad Government, so long as it is all in London and no foreigners are involved.
That leaves open the question of who counts as a foreigner. My lot have only been here since 1958, so on some views I am a foreigner and on others I'm not.
I am sorry to say that few Brexiters whom I have discussed the subject with appear to have taken the time to inform themselves as to (a) history, or (b) economics. I have met a couple of well informed Brexiters. They say that they accept that leaving the EU is economically dumb, but they also say that they will put up with this because of ideas of sovereignty and democracy. Even that argument may have an element of xenophobia embedded within it - the point being a preference for Government (even mis-Government) from London over partial Government (mis-Government or not) from Brussels, Strasbourg, and Luxembourg. The argument is sometimes put on the basis that we want to be misruled by our own idiots and not by someone else's idiots. The most honest well informed Brexiter whom I know now accepts that the plan is going wrong because there is less democracy and not more, and weaker Government and not stronger. The other one holds firm to the idea that it is OK to be economically diminished and ruled by a really bad Government, so long as it is all in London and no foreigners are involved.
That leaves open the question of who counts as a foreigner. My lot have only been here since 1958, so on some views I am a foreigner and on others I'm not.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 8th August 09:32
The problems in Poland and Hungary may be more extreme versions of the problems in the UK. People outside the metropolitan areas feel excluded from the benefits of modernity (some times, often, they are right to feel this), and so turn against modernity.
People often vote against their own interests, For example, a London metro elite person should from self interest vote for low taxes and low regulation. That same person might sensibly choose to align with the elite forces that stand behind the fake-populist Brexit project (ie very rich dudes who do not like controls on monopolies and do not like workers having rights, and so on). But the London metro person may in fact vote against his or her own interest and prefer tax and regulation. On one view, this is in reality a self interested vote, as voting for a less red toothed and clawed variant of Capitalism may ensure that fewer rocks are thrown through the elegant sash windows of the white stucco house.
The angry bloke in the pub in Hartlepool also votes against his own interest when he gets taken in by the super-elite liars who sell him Brexit. Angry bloke in non metro Poland and non metro Hungary does a similar thing, but he votes for people that hover close to fascism. That is the saddest bit about the whole thing.
People often vote against their own interests, For example, a London metro elite person should from self interest vote for low taxes and low regulation. That same person might sensibly choose to align with the elite forces that stand behind the fake-populist Brexit project (ie very rich dudes who do not like controls on monopolies and do not like workers having rights, and so on). But the London metro person may in fact vote against his or her own interest and prefer tax and regulation. On one view, this is in reality a self interested vote, as voting for a less red toothed and clawed variant of Capitalism may ensure that fewer rocks are thrown through the elegant sash windows of the white stucco house.
The angry bloke in the pub in Hartlepool also votes against his own interest when he gets taken in by the super-elite liars who sell him Brexit. Angry bloke in non metro Poland and non metro Hungary does a similar thing, but he votes for people that hover close to fascism. That is the saddest bit about the whole thing.
Breadvan72 said:
That leaves open the question of who counts as a foreigner. My lot have only been here since 1958, so in some views I am a foreigner and in others I'm not.
I'm as sure as I can be that on both side of my family, going back just four generations from myself would put you in Eastern Europe, fleeing from the Pogroms. By the generation after those that fled, they were, essentially 'English' in outlook.Breadvan72 said:
Tthe London metro person may in fact vote against his or her own interest and prefer tax and regulation. On one view, this is in reality a self interested vote, as voting for a less red toothed and clawed variant of Capitalism may ensure that fewer rocks are thrown through the elegant sash windows of the white stucco house.
Yes, that and virtue signalling. Not sure which is more patronising.Breadvan72 said:
The angry bloke in the pub in Hartlepool also votes against his own interest when he gets taken in by the super-elite liars who sell him Brexit. Angry bloke in non metro Poland and non metro Hungary does a similar thing, but he votes for people that hover close to fascism. That is the saddest bit about the whole thing.
My Angry from Hartlepool doesn't know or care who actually helped us (i.e. the Poles) defeat Hitler. Unfortunately, a recurrent issue in many new European nations is a lack of experience and rigour in dealing with democracy, as opposed to the previous regimes. In many regards, the EU has inadvertently assumed the role of evil big brother.Edited by Digga on Tuesday 8th August 09:42
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