Meanwhile in Poland
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
As for the fellow traveller arguments that blame Merkel and so on for the rise of extremist governments in parts of Europe, would you by parity of reasoning blame, say, the Weimar Government for Hitler?
All the same, newly 'democratic' nations, emerging from communist rule and the overbearing control of the former USSR must also see the irony and undesirability of the way the EU is run, in no small part by those who cleaved to the communist ideals rejected by these same nations.Do you actually believe that stuff or are you just trolling? If you do believe it, than maybe you ought to do some reading up on stuff. Suggestions that the EU is run like the puppet states of the Soviet block are frankly ludicrous, and maybe even a tad insulting to those who lived under the Soviet regimes. Seriously, the amount of kneejerk slogans and sheer stubborn ignorance that emits from supporters of Brexit is remarkable. One reason why Remainers are cross about the impending car crash is that one group of the Brexiters were deliberately lying, and the rest of them were either accidentally or sometimes it appears wilfully misinformed and credulous. Rarely can have such a momentous decision have been taken on such a slender platform of information and analysis and on the basis of so many myths, rumours, and just plain BS. The fatuous complacency of the David Davises of the world as the UK heads off a cliff might be excusable in principle-free careerist politicians such as Davis and the others who make up the current non-Government of the UK, but it's a pity that some voters share in the complacency.
Breadvan72 said:
Do you actually believe that stuff or are you just trolling? If you do believe it, than maybe you ought to do some reading up on stuff. Suggestions that the EU is run like the puppet states of the Soviet block are frankly ludicrous, and maybe even a tad insulting to those who lived under the Soviet regimes.
I'd argue - as those nations themselves are beginning to - that having emerged from the grasp of communism, it is insulting to those states who now see their own democratic autonomy eroded by the EU. The likes of Poland, Hungary and Slovakia are clearly unhappy at the present moment, to infer anything else is nonsense.Even the Guardian have reported is BV, so it's okay to acknowledge and it is certainly no trolling on my part, just because it does not sit easily with your "nothing to see here" agenda.
The Guardian said:
Budapest condemned the court ruling as “appalling and irresponsible”. The foreign minister, Péter Szijjártó, said: “This decision jeopardises the security and future of all of Europe. Politics has raped European law and values.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/06/eu-court-dismisses-complaints-by-hungary-and-slovakia-over-refugeesBreadvan72 said:
Do you actually believe that stuff or are you just trolling? If you do believe it, than maybe you ought to do some reading up on stuff. Suggestions that the EU is run like the puppet states of the Soviet block are frankly ludicrous, and maybe even a tad insulting to those who lived under the Soviet regimes. Seriously, the amount of kneejerk slogans and sheer stubborn ignorance that emits from supporters of Brexit is remarkable. One reason why Remainers are cross about the impending car crash is that one group of the Brexiters were deliberately lying, and the rest of them were either accidentally or sometimes it appears wilfully misinformed and credulous. Rarely can have such a momentous decision have been taken on such a slender platform of information and analysis and on the basis of so many myths, rumours, and just plain BS. The fatuous complacency of the David Davises of the world as the UK heads off a cliff might be excusable in principle-free careerist politicians such as Davis and the others who make up the current non-Government of the UK, but it's a pity that some voters share in the complacency.
Read the second quote...https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/138353.Mik...
Breadvan72 said:
Do you actually believe that stuff or are you just trolling? If you do believe it, than maybe you ought to do some reading up on stuff. Suggestions that the EU is run like the puppet states of the Soviet block are frankly ludicrous, and maybe even a tad insulting to those who lived under the Soviet regimes. Seriously, the amount of kneejerk slogans and sheer stubborn ignorance that emits from supporters of Brexit is remarkable. One reason why Remainers are cross about the impending car crash is that one group of the Brexiters were deliberately lying, and the rest of them were either accidentally or sometimes it appears wilfully misinformed and credulous. Rarely can have such a momentous decision have been taken on such a slender platform of information and analysis and on the basis of so many myths, rumours, and just plain BS. The fatuous complacency of the David Davises of the world as the UK heads off a cliff might be excusable in principle-free careerist politicians such as Davis and the others who make up the current non-Government of the UK, but it's a pity that some voters share in the complacency.
I think we all know you're a committed Remoaner, we don't need reminding.All I will add is that I'm truly delighted that we are getting out, just in time.
I'm wondering now whoever thought it was a good idea to join......
Breadvan72 said:
Do you actually believe that stuff or are you just trolling? If you do believe it, than maybe you ought to do some reading up on stuff. Suggestions that the EU is run like the puppet states of the Soviet block are frankly ludicrous, and maybe even a tad insulting to those who lived under the Soviet regimes. Seriously, the amount of kneejerk slogans and sheer stubborn ignorance that emits from supporters of Brexit is remarkable. One reason why Remainers are cross about the impending car crash is that one group of the Brexiters were deliberately lying, and the rest of them were either accidentally or sometimes it appears wilfully misinformed and credulous. Rarely can have such a momentous decision have been taken on such a slender platform of information and analysis and on the basis of so many myths, rumours, and just plain BS. The fatuous complacency of the David Davises of the world as the UK heads off a cliff might be excusable in principle-free careerist politicians such as Davis and the others who make up the current non-Government of the UK, but it's a pity that some voters share in the complacency.
To be fair BV Gorby did mention the EUSSR - given that he had direct experience of the USSR and the EU one might imagine that his viewpoint holds somewhat more weight than your opinionSeen on FB, from a meeting in Warsaw of all places
Humanists UK said:
Elizabeth O'Casey of the International Humanist and Ethical Union - IHEU has spoken out about Turkey, Hungary, and Russia's rising populism and their worrying assaults on democratic values.
'Many of these populist movements at their base are rooted in demagoguery, where power is gained by the exploitation of prejudice, fear and ignorance, the whipping up the passions and shutting down of reasoned deliberation.
'Their tendency toward post-fact, anti-expert, simplistic and intolerant standpoints serve only to nurture an anti-universalist tyranny of the majority which inevitably undermines the human rights of minorities, allows for extremism, and threatens the very democratic system which gave them a voice in the first place.'
'Many of these populist movements at their base are rooted in demagoguery, where power is gained by the exploitation of prejudice, fear and ignorance, the whipping up the passions and shutting down of reasoned deliberation.
'Their tendency toward post-fact, anti-expert, simplistic and intolerant standpoints serve only to nurture an anti-universalist tyranny of the majority which inevitably undermines the human rights of minorities, allows for extremism, and threatens the very democratic system which gave them a voice in the first place.'
Breadvan72 said:
Seen on FB, from a meeting in Warsaw of all places
I would not disagree with that.Humanists UK said:
Elizabeth O'Casey of the International Humanist and Ethical Union - IHEU has spoken out about Turkey, Hungary, and Russia's rising populism and their worrying assaults on democratic values.
'Many of these populist movements at their base are rooted in demagoguery, where power is gained by the exploitation of prejudice, fear and ignorance, the whipping up the passions and shutting down of reasoned deliberation.
'Their tendency toward post-fact, anti-expert, simplistic and intolerant standpoints serve only to nurture an anti-universalist tyranny of the majority which inevitably undermines the human rights of minorities, allows for extremism, and threatens the very democratic system which gave them a voice in the first place.'
'Many of these populist movements at their base are rooted in demagoguery, where power is gained by the exploitation of prejudice, fear and ignorance, the whipping up the passions and shutting down of reasoned deliberation.
'Their tendency toward post-fact, anti-expert, simplistic and intolerant standpoints serve only to nurture an anti-universalist tyranny of the majority which inevitably undermines the human rights of minorities, allows for extremism, and threatens the very democratic system which gave them a voice in the first place.'
Unfortunately, WRT to the recent migrant crisis, it was a vacuum of authority from the EU which put huge pressure on many 'front line' nations, which resulted in the rather awkward stand-off we now see. You can only exploit, exaggerate and extrapolate a fear that is based on a situation that actually exists.
Hungary is 80-90% Christian. Does Orban really think a few thousand Muslims is going to affect the ‘Christian element’ of their nation?
Hungarian leader Viktor Orban attacked EU migrant quotas and pledged to protect Poland from EU sanctions in Warsaw on Friday (22 September). "We don't want a mixed population, as is being created in countries to the west of us. We want other solutions, so please respect that," he said. With Muslims accounting for most EU asylum seekers, he said he did want to see "the Christian element constantly decreasing" in Europe
Hungarian leader Viktor Orban attacked EU migrant quotas and pledged to protect Poland from EU sanctions in Warsaw on Friday (22 September). "We don't want a mixed population, as is being created in countries to the west of us. We want other solutions, so please respect that," he said. With Muslims accounting for most EU asylum seekers, he said he did want to see "the Christian element constantly decreasing" in Europe
Edited by BlackLabel on Friday 22 September 18:46
BlackLabel said:
Surely there's a 'not' missing at the end there?BlackLabel said:
Hungary is 80-90% Christian. Does Orban really think a few thousand Muslims is going to affect the ‘Christian element’ of their nation?
Hungarian leader Viktor Orban attacked EU migrant quotas and pledged to protect Poland from EU sanctions in Warsaw on Friday (22 September). "We don't want a mixed population, as is being created in countries to the west of us. We want other solutions, so please respect that," he said. With Muslims accounting for most EU asylum seekers, he said he did want to see "the Christian element constantly decreasing" in Europe
Probably depends on their reproduction rate.........Hungarian leader Viktor Orban attacked EU migrant quotas and pledged to protect Poland from EU sanctions in Warsaw on Friday (22 September). "We don't want a mixed population, as is being created in countries to the west of us. We want other solutions, so please respect that," he said. With Muslims accounting for most EU asylum seekers, he said he did want to see "the Christian element constantly decreasing" in Europe
Edited by BlackLabel on Friday 22 September 18:46
BlackLabel said:
Hungary is 80-90% Christian. Does Orban really think a few thousand Muslims is going to affect the ‘Christian element’ of their nation?
Hungarian leader Viktor Orban attacked EU migrant quotas and pledged to protect Poland from EU sanctions in Warsaw on Friday (22 September). "We don't want a mixed population, as is being created in countries to the west of us. We want other solutions, so please respect that," he said. With Muslims accounting for most EU asylum seekers, he said he did want to see "the Christian element constantly decreasing" in Europe
We probably thought the same in the 1960's.Hungarian leader Viktor Orban attacked EU migrant quotas and pledged to protect Poland from EU sanctions in Warsaw on Friday (22 September). "We don't want a mixed population, as is being created in countries to the west of us. We want other solutions, so please respect that," he said. With Muslims accounting for most EU asylum seekers, he said he did want to see "the Christian element constantly decreasing" in Europe
Edited by BlackLabel on Friday 22 September 18:46
BlackLabel said:
Hungary is 80-90% Christian. Does Orban really think a few thousand Muslims is going to affect the ‘Christian element’ of their nation?
"Multiculturalism", only ever a spin word for the ghettos that form when uncontrolled immigration is allowed, is an utter disaster. I don't blame other nations for looking our experience and deciding that they don't want to start down that road. We seem to be okay with the Swiss feeling this way. Why not the Eastern countries? Especially those with a history of conflict with Islam?More problems for the EU in Eastern Europe
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/world/europe/cz...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-21...
"Czech billionaire Andrej Babis, who’s facing criminal fraud charges, led his ANO party to a landslide victory in parliamentary elections after promising to run the state like a business, fight Muslim immigration and oppose deeper integration with the European Union."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/world/europe/cz...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-21...
"Czech billionaire Andrej Babis, who’s facing criminal fraud charges, led his ANO party to a landslide victory in parliamentary elections after promising to run the state like a business, fight Muslim immigration and oppose deeper integration with the European Union."
BlackLabel said:
More problems for the EU in Eastern Europe
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/world/europe/cz...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-21...
"Czech billionaire Andrej Babis, who’s facing criminal fraud charges, led his ANO party to a landslide victory in parliamentary elections after promising to run the state like a business, fight Muslim immigration and oppose deeper integration with the European Union."
But, but, but more Europe! More EU!!!https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/world/europe/cz...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-21...
"Czech billionaire Andrej Babis, who’s facing criminal fraud charges, led his ANO party to a landslide victory in parliamentary elections after promising to run the state like a business, fight Muslim immigration and oppose deeper integration with the European Union."
BlackLabel said:
More problems for the EU in Eastern Europe
"Czech billionaire Andrej Babis, who’s facing criminal fraud charges, led his ANO party to a landslide victory in parliamentary elections after promising to run the state like a business, fight Muslim immigration and oppose deeper integration with the European Union."
Same as in Austria and Poland, EU skepticism is, IMO, not the major reason people are turning to alternative political parities. Complex matters at work that require a deep dive into the political landscape of each country. "Czech billionaire Andrej Babis, who’s facing criminal fraud charges, led his ANO party to a landslide victory in parliamentary elections after promising to run the state like a business, fight Muslim immigration and oppose deeper integration with the European Union."
And is this EU skepticism really a problem? Democratic process at work IMO. I think it is a healthy development.
As a result, it looks like on two fronts at least, the EU project will slow down for a good while. That is a) adding new member states and b) deeper integration. Personally e.g. I'd really like to see living standards in Romania rise a good bit before we even consider adding more members.
One could argue that this will only improve things and make people even more happy with the EU. The vast majority of citizens are optimistic about the future of the EU:
Stats are fairly recent, 2017.05.
There seems to be some form of Schadenfreude appearing on here recently when things in a EU member state aren't going well. A bit childish I think and I wonder if there is some Bremorse
in play? Kolbenkopp said:
BlackLabel said:
More problems for the EU in Eastern Europe
"Czech billionaire Andrej Babis, who’s facing criminal fraud charges, led his ANO party to a landslide victory in parliamentary elections after promising to run the state like a business, fight Muslim immigration and oppose deeper integration with the European Union."
Same as in Austria and Poland, EU skepticism is, IMO, not the major reason people are turning to alternative political parities. Complex matters at work that require a deep dive into the political landscape of each country. "Czech billionaire Andrej Babis, who’s facing criminal fraud charges, led his ANO party to a landslide victory in parliamentary elections after promising to run the state like a business, fight Muslim immigration and oppose deeper integration with the European Union."
And is this EU skepticism really a problem? Democratic process at work IMO. I think it is a healthy development.
As a result, it looks like on two fronts at least, the EU project will slow down for a good while. That is a) adding new member states and b) deeper integration. Personally e.g. I'd really like to see living standards in Romania rise a good bit before we even consider adding more members.
One could argue that this will only improve things and make people even more happy with the EU. The vast majority of citizens are optimistic about the future of the EU:
Stats are fairly recent, 2017.05.
There seems to be some form of Schadenfreude appearing on here recently when things in a EU member state aren't going well. A bit childish I think and I wonder if there is some Bremorse
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