Can we talk about Germany for a bit?

[Kolbenkopp]

Digga said:

Now, moving in the other direction, I am fairly confident in saying there is no more beautiful language than Italian. Which is a good job, because there are few nations who so seldom pause for breath.

Yup, agreed. My little sis is fluent, I understand some very elementary basics. We have a little game trying to check the theory that everything sounds better in Italian. We haven't found an exception yet .

[wisbech]

Digga said:

Not quite such a shock for me, but was still unsettling.

Now, moving in the other direction, I am fairly confident in saying there is no more beautiful language than Italian. Which is a good job, because there are few nations who so seldom pause for breath.

I’ll raise you Classical Arabic. (not colloquial, but the version used for poetry and the Quran). Sounds like a mountain stream.

[grantone]

Kolbenkopp said:

...

The rallying cry of the industry is "Fachkräftemangel" -> shortage of qualified / certified staff. Allegedly at least some 300k skilled labour positions vacant right now, with little chance of getting them filled (roughly half IT half mechanical / electrical specialists). Slowing growth and profits obviously.
...

Apologies for the snip of the quote.

Is the skilled labour immigration plan to look for ready trained people, or to train locally?

Are there incentives to get the local birth rate up for the longer term?

Does the country have a lot of financial commitments that might be difficult to meet with a declining working age population?

I find this stuff interesting as I can see how economic growth works in an advanced service based economy with an increasing population, but not sure how it works with a flat/declining one (exports & productivity?) Will human resources be something for countries to openly compete for (if it's not already happening)?

[Oakey]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I've mentioned it in previous threads when discussing food banks in the UK, France also has food banks. They aren't the reserve of the UK despite what Corbyn and his acolytes would have us believe.

[Kawasicki]

Oakey said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I've mentioned it in previous threads when discussing food banks in the UK, France also has food banks. They aren't the reserve of the UK despite what Corbyn and his acolytes would have us believe.

I live in Bavaria. Munich and surrounding areas, say within 40 minutes drive, are some of the most expensive places to live in Germany.

It’s an interesting situation. Probably not that different to London. People want to live in or close to the wealthy big cities...and that drives prices up. So poor people struggle...not sure what the solution is.

[BlackLabel]

Interesting scheme from Germany....

“ Germany has agreed to pay more than €560 million ($662 million) in aid to Holocaust survivors struggling during the coronavirus pandemic, the Claims Conference, an organization that negotiates compensation for Holocaust victims with the German government, said Wednesday.
The aid is intended for the poorest Holocaust survivors, who will receive two payments of €1,200 ($1,400) over the next two years. The payments will become effective on December 1.
The Claims Conference estimates that approximately 240,000 survivors will be eligible for the payments, with most of the recipients residing in Israel, North America, the former Soviet Union, and Western Europe”

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-provide-coronavir...

[Pesty]

Wow, genuinely surprised there are that many still alive.

[glazbagun]

Kawasicki said:

Oakey said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I've mentioned it in previous threads when discussing food banks in the UK, France also has food banks. They aren't the reserve of the UK despite what Corbyn and his acolytes would have us believe.

I live in Bavaria. Munich and surrounding areas, say within 40 minutes drive, are some of the most expensive places to live in Germany.

It’s an interesting situation. Probably not that different to London. People want to live in or close to the wealthy big cities...and that drives prices up. So poor people struggle...not sure what the solution is.

I think this is where the Thatcherite "it's ok that some get super rich if we're all getting a bit richer" falls down, at leaat in modern times.

I'm richer than I've ever been in terms of income, yet have the same standard of living as I did when a student and am firmly in the rental trap due to the need to work near London. Most of the people I knew were in a similar boat unless they had local family or a big inheritance.

I have heard, anecdotally, that BTL in Germany is seen as a poor investment, but (also anecdotally) my friends in Hamburg rant about the expensive rental situation. Could you offer an opinion on that?

[Digga]

glazbagun said:

I have heard, anecdotally, that BTL in Germany is seen as a poor investment, but (also anecdotally) my friends in Hamburg rant about the expensive rental situation. Could you offer an opinion on that?

FWIW, some English friends of ours lived in Dusseldorf recently and they and most of their work colleagues rented.

In 1970's, family friends lived in Hamburg for many years and they too rented.

I think the buy/rent situation is much different to the UK in many continental European countries. I often think there is a (mistaken) stigma to renting in the UK when, in many situations, it's a sensible choice. Similar on PH to the "buy with cash, or you can;t really afford it" vs. PCP or lease mentality.

[Robertj21a]

Digga said:

FWIW, some English friends of ours lived in Dusseldorf recently and they and most of their work colleagues rented.

In 1970's, family friends lived in Hamburg for many years and they too rented.

I think the buy/rent situation is much different to the UK in many continental European countries. I often think there is a (mistaken) stigma to renting in the UK when, in many situations, it's a sensible choice. Similar on PH to the "buy with cash, or you can;t really afford it" vs. PCP or lease mentality.

I thought the rental market was better controlled in Germany - both in terms of length of tenure and restrictions on rent increases ? - on the other hand have I got the wrong country?

[generationx]

Digga said:

glazbagun said:

I have heard, anecdotally, that BTL in Germany is seen as a poor investment, but (also anecdotally) my friends in Hamburg rant about the expensive rental situation. Could you offer an opinion on that?

FWIW, some English friends of ours lived in Dusseldorf recently and they and most of their work colleagues rented.

In 1970's, family friends lived in Hamburg for many years and they too rented.

I think the buy/rent situation is much different to the UK in many continental European countries. I often think there is a (mistaken) stigma to renting in the UK when, in many situations, it's a sensible choice. Similar on PH to the "buy with cash, or you can;t really afford it" vs. PCP or lease mentality.

I have lived and worked in Cologne for nearly 8 years. It is indeed much more commonplace to rent than let, and the renting market is hugely busy, making it very difficult to find somewhere without competing with several, if not tens of, other potential tenants. One has to be very lucky to find the ideal place.

Certainly in this city property is extremely expensive, but even in these strange times the market is boyant. A good friend works in a property development company and it is usually the case that, as soon as a new residential development is announced, the homes within sell quickly. This has the effect that most of the urban properties are owned by larger companies or individuals with a large portfolio.

Friends who own their own properties tend to live out of the city.

[Digga]

generationx said:

This has the effect that most of the urban properties are owned by larger companies or individuals with a large portfolio.

I did wonder who/how domestic properties were owned there.

Are rents and agreements more strictly controlled than the UK then?

[generationx]

Digga said:

generationx said:

This has the effect that most of the urban properties are owned by larger companies or individuals with a large portfolio.

I did wonder who/how domestic properties were owned there.

Are rents and agreements more strictly controlled than the UK then?

As we're talking about Germany there is a lot of legislation and, more importantly, paperwork involved. For example my current rental agreement runs to 15 small-print sheets of A4 with several places I had to sign. I'm very grateful I had said German friend in the industry present when I was going though the signing process, the subject-related language is pretty impenetrable. Even some German friends struggle with some of the words...

Then there's the process of reregistering one's home address which involves a long wait in a big council building. Hours of fun.

[Digga]

generationx said:

Digga said:

generationx said:

This has the effect that most of the urban properties are owned by larger companies or individuals with a large portfolio.

I did wonder who/how domestic properties were owned there.

Are rents and agreements more strictly controlled than the UK then?

As we're talking about Germany there is a lot of legislation and, more importantly, paperwork involved. For example my current rental agreement runs to 15 small-print sheets of A4 with several places I had to sign. I'm very grateful I had said German friend in the industry present when I was going though the signing process, the subject-related language is pretty impenetrable. Even some German friends struggle with some of the words...

Then there's the process of reregistering one's home address which involves a long wait in a big council building. Hours of fun.

Sounds a bit inflexible and bureaucratic then?

Liek having to go to an office to fill out a form to change your favourite flavour of crisps.

[Robertj21a]

Digga said:

generationx said:

Digga said:

generationx said:

This has the effect that most of the urban properties are owned by larger companies or individuals with a large portfolio.

I did wonder who/how domestic properties were owned there.

Are rents and agreements more strictly controlled than the UK then?

As we're talking about Germany there is a lot of legislation and, more importantly, paperwork involved. For example my current rental agreement runs to 15 small-print sheets of A4 with several places I had to sign. I'm very grateful I had said German friend in the industry present when I was going though the signing process, the subject-related language is pretty impenetrable. Even some German friends struggle with some of the words...

Then there's the process of reregistering one's home address which involves a long wait in a big council building. Hours of fun.

Sounds a bit inflexible and bureaucratic then?

Liek having to go to an office to fill out a form to change your favourite flavour of crisps.

But worth the effort if it gives you better security and peace of mind?

[Digga]

Robertj21a said:

Digga said:

generationx said:

Digga said:

generationx said:

This has the effect that most of the urban properties are owned by larger companies or individuals with a large portfolio.

I did wonder who/how domestic properties were owned there.

Are rents and agreements more strictly controlled than the UK then?

As we're talking about Germany there is a lot of legislation and, more importantly, paperwork involved. For example my current rental agreement runs to 15 small-print sheets of A4 with several places I had to sign. I'm very grateful I had said German friend in the industry present when I was going though the signing process, the subject-related language is pretty impenetrable. Even some German friends struggle with some of the words...

Then there's the process of reregistering one's home address which involves a long wait in a big council building. Hours of fun.

Sounds a bit inflexible and bureaucratic then?

Liek having to go to an office to fill out a form to change your favourite flavour of crisps.

But worth the effort if it gives you better security and peace of mind?

As a casual observer, it would appear the market functions better for both landlord and tenant in Germany.

[V8mate]

Digga said:

generationx said:

This has the effect that most of the urban properties are owned by larger companies or individuals with a large portfolio.

I did wonder who/how domestic properties were owned there.

Are rents and agreements more strictly controlled than the UK then?

The rise of the portfolio landlord is a fairly recent thing.

Previously, as well as the state and housing associations building properties, the German version of buy-to-let was very prevalent. Someone would buy a plot, and build a home for themselves, with some spare homes attached which they would let. At its simplest, you would have what looks to us like a detached house, where the owner lives in a flat on the ground floor (and gets the garden), and upstairs is a flat which they rent out. If you're in a more urban area, you might build a three-storey block of six flats, live in the first one, and then rent out the remaining five. etc etc.

Early rent controls were mainly focused in Berlin but, IIRC, only applied to existing stock. So if you came along and bought a new build block as a portfolio investment, you could charge whatever you like for them.
Then, in 2015, a federal law was passed stating that in areas with a housing shortage, new rental contracts can't go more than ten percent above the rents paid for similar local apartments. As far as I'm aware, only Berlin and Munich have qualified. Which is surprising, because - as someone said earlier^^ - cities like Cologne have scarily high levels of demand.

There's certainly no social stigma in Germany for those who rent vs own their property. Tenure is secure, generally taken for long periods, and landlords tend not to be flighty, money-grabbing s, as so many are in the UK.

[Bodo]

V8mate said:

...

Early rent controls were mainly focused in Berlin but, IIRC, only applied to existing stock. So if you came along and bought a new build block as a portfolio investment, you could charge whatever you like for them.
Then, in 2015, a federal law was passed stating that in areas with a housing shortage, new rental contracts can't go more than ten percent above the rents paid for similar local apartments. As far as I'm aware, only Berlin and Munich have qualified. Which is surprising, because - as someone said earlier^^ - cities like Cologne have scarily high levels of demand.
...

V8mate, what you mention is part of the pretty recent Mietpreisbremse, which is effective in almost every high-demand area now. Additionally, estate agents must be paid by the one who commissioned them. This is relevant, because they used to be paid (typically three months' rent +VAT) by the tenant, even though the landlord commissioned them. (supply&demand)

This comes on top of what was and is already established for longer:
Typically, landlords can only raise the rent once every three years, and then not more than 15%. However, this is capped at the local market rent, which is determined by the council every couple of years 'Mietspiegel'; and is the average of all rents of the specific quarter. In older quarters with long tenancies, the average price per m² could be a third of a newly let flat.

[BlackLabel]

Lots about the migrant flow to Germany early on in this thread but it looks like Merkel has come out of that one very well.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germa...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/30/ange...

https://www.dw.com/en/five-years-on-how-germanys-r...

[Robertj21a]

Bodo said:

V8mate said:

...

Early rent controls were mainly focused in Berlin but, IIRC, only applied to existing stock. So if you came along and bought a new build block as a portfolio investment, you could charge whatever you like for them.
Then, in 2015, a federal law was passed stating that in areas with a housing shortage, new rental contracts can't go more than ten percent above the rents paid for similar local apartments. As far as I'm aware, only Berlin and Munich have qualified. Which is surprising, because - as someone said earlier^^ - cities like Cologne have scarily high levels of demand.
...

V8mate, what you mention is part of the pretty recent Mietpreisbremse, which is effective in almost every high-demand area now. Additionally, estate agents must be paid by the one who commissioned them. This is relevant, because they used to be paid (typically three months' rent +VAT) by the tenant, even though the landlord commissioned them. (supply&demand)

This comes on top of what was and is already established for longer:
Typically, landlords can only raise the rent once every three years, and then not more than 15%. However, this is capped at the local market rent, which is determined by the council every couple of years 'Mietspiegel'; and is the average of all rents of the specific quarter. In older quarters with long tenancies, the average price per m² could be a third of a newly let flat.

Thanks for that, I thought I'd read about it a few years ago. Perhaps the UK could move towards similar common sense policies.....