Hillsborough Inquest
Discussion
Ayahuasca said:
The Hillsborough disaster was 31 years ago.
31 years from the end of the Second World War was 1976.
By 1976 WWII veterans were going on holiday to Germany and Japan.
Fawlty Towers mocking of a Brit who kept mentioning the war was in 1975, 30 years after the war.
Time to move on.
Spot on. However, they are so engrossed in their little historical local event that they can't even begin to appreciate its lack of significance in the world timeline.31 years from the end of the Second World War was 1976.
By 1976 WWII veterans were going on holiday to Germany and Japan.
Fawlty Towers mocking of a Brit who kept mentioning the war was in 1975, 30 years after the war.
Time to move on.
Zoobeef said:
Red 4 said:
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you know nothing about.
Lots of people - Red, what do you think of Heysel?Red - I dont know about that to give an opinion.
Irony.
I have made no comment on Heysel.That is because I do not know enough about it to offer an informed opinion. This is not a difficult concept to grasp for most people. Normal people that is.
I do not see the relevance to Hillsborough though, based on my limited knowledge of events at Heysel.
You should explain ...if you can.
Red 4 said:
Zoobeef said:
Red 4 said:
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you know nothing about.
Lots of people - Red, what do you think of Heysel?Red - I dont know about that to give an opinion.
Irony.
I have made no comment on Heysel.That is because I do not know enough about it to offer an informed opinion. This is not a difficult concept to grasp for most people. Normal people that is.
I do not see the relevance to Hillsborough though, based on my limited knowledge of events at Heysel.
You should explain ...if you can.
It is relevant of course because, rightly or wrongly (I make no judgement), it formed some of the background to what happened in the aftermath of Hillsborough. The feeling at the time being that for a particular set of fans to be involved in one stadium disaster is unfortunate, but to be involved in two...
Red 4 said:
Thank you. Your post speaks volumes.
In other words you are an internet troll.
Not a very prolific one though?In other words you are an internet troll.
You'd know that as you have already checked out my posting history, haven't you?
The facts of the matter remain.
You won't change your opinion.
No matter what.
Even though you know you are.
Ignoring questions.
And ignoring evidence.
And resorting to.
Waffling ad homs.
Enjoy your afternoon.
xxx
Bacon is Proof.
Not contributed to this thread for about 50 pages but I can see that certain points of dispute rermain disputed.
I have learnt some things from your contributions Red4 and I get where you're coming from but you do yourself no favours with your patronising, head-shaking, eye-rolling writing style which puts peoples backs up. Why cant you just make your points without the smartarse comments?
I have learnt some things from your contributions Red4 and I get where you're coming from but you do yourself no favours with your patronising, head-shaking, eye-rolling writing style which puts peoples backs up. Why cant you just make your points without the smartarse comments?
The elephant in the room is obvious. Liverpool fans crushed other Liverpool fans. The whys and the wherefores have been much debated and discussed. There were failings by police and all the relevant authorities.
But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.
But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.
Red 4 said:
Zoobeef said:
Red 4 said:
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you know nothing about.
Lots of people - Red, what do you think of Heysel?Red - I dont know about that to give an opinion.
Irony.
I have made no comment on Heysel.That is because I do not know enough about it to offer an informed opinion. This is not a difficult concept to grasp for most people. Normal people that is.
I do not see the relevance to Hillsborough though, based on my limited knowledge of events at Heysel.
You should explain ...if you can.
just keep digging.XCP said:
The elephant in the room is obvious. Liverpool fans crushed other Liverpool fans. The whys and the wherefores have been much debated and discussed. There were failings by police and all the relevant authorities.
But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.
With the caveat of course that no other sports fans have been treated the way football fans were in the 70s and 80s.But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.
My view is that the fans were unfairly demonised in the immediate aftermath and have since been unrealistically deified. But views on this subject are so entrenched there's little room for debate.
XCP said:
The elephant in the room is obvious. Liverpool fans crushed other Liverpool fans. The whys and the wherefores have been much debated and discussed. There were failings by police and all the relevant authorities.
But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.
See question 7.But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14...
Red 4 said:
See question 7.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14...
No-one was crushed at the turnstiles as far as I know. Do you think any of this would have happened if the crowd had been cricket or athletics fans?https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14...
XCP said:
Red 4 said:
See question 7.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14...
No-one was crushed at the turnstiles as far as I know. Do you think any of this would have happened if the crowd had been cricket or athletics fans?https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14...
Now see question 3.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14...
TTwiggy said:
My view is that the fans were unfairly demonised in the immediate aftermath and have since been unrealistically deified. But views on this subject are so entrenched there's little room for debate.
To say that the fans were unfairly demonised might be putting it a little mildly.The Sun's journalism was beneath contempt. Then there was a criminal conspiracy by elements of SYP to deflect blame from themselves by attaching it to the fans. It's rather more than merely being "unfair".
It's hardly surprising that the families of the deceased have kicked up such a stink and I applaud them for what they have achieved.
If (some officers within) SYP hadn't been so incompetent or so bent then this horrible business would now be history.
I do, however, agree with your comments about the fans being unrealistically deified.
Whilst the inquest concluded that "the fans" were not to blame at Hillsborough, you only need to look at Heysel for an example of how some Liverpool fans were behaving in the 1980s.
39 dead, 600 injured and fourteen Liverpool fans convicted of manslaughter. Banned from Europe for 5 years. But that doesn't seem to get mentioned very often.
Red 4 said:
Yes. We know it was a balls up. But the consequences would not have been so serious or indeed might not have happened if this hadn't been a football crowd. Can you not accept that a football crowd was ( and still is to some extent) a different proposition than a crowd of athletics fans?Pat H said:
Whilst the inquest concluded that "the fans" were not to blame at Hillsborough, you only need to look at Heysel for an example of how some Liverpool fans were behaving in the 1980s.
39 dead, 600 injured and fourteen Liverpool fans convicted of manslaughter. Banned from Europe for 5 years. But that doesn't seem to get mentioned very often.
It is odd that there are so many British experts on Hillsborough but very few on Heysel? There is also the complete reluctance to discuss Heysel in the same context as Hillsborough, and the fact it took 10 years to put up a monument to those who died at Hillsborough but 25 years to honour the deaths directly caused by Liverpool fans at Heysel...39 dead, 600 injured and fourteen Liverpool fans convicted of manslaughter. Banned from Europe for 5 years. But that doesn't seem to get mentioned very often.
XCP said:
Red 4 said:
Yes. We know it was a balls up. But the consequences would not have been so serious or indeed might not have happened if this hadn't been a football crowd. Can you not accept that a football crowd was ( and still is to some extent) a different proposition than a crowd of athletics fans?Bigends said:
XCP said:
Red 4 said:
Yes. We know it was a balls up. But the consequences would not have been so serious or indeed might not have happened if this hadn't been a football crowd. Can you not accept that a football crowd was ( and still is to some extent) a different proposition than a crowd of athletics fans?
holed.....not a scrap of bother other than loads of DnI's Having watched the documentary it's obvious that opening gate C didn't result in the direct deaths of the fans. What caused the deaths is what happened inside the ground after the gate was opened, This is covered by questions 2, 4, 5 from the Inquest which covers the lack of coordination inside the ground. The tunnel gates should have been shut, there should have been officers/stewards there directing fans to the other pens. The signage inside the ground was a joke and the fans just headed for the nearest entrance. Had this been in place I doubt anyone would have died.
I seem to remember in my days that outside was covered by the Police and inside was the domain of the club in terms of who was in charge. When I policed Elland Road inside the ground was called Special Duty paid for by Leeds United. The question being who was responsible for inside and directing fans SWFC or the Police?
I seem to remember in my days that outside was covered by the Police and inside was the domain of the club in terms of who was in charge. When I policed Elland Road inside the ground was called Special Duty paid for by Leeds United. The question being who was responsible for inside and directing fans SWFC or the Police?
Phil Dicky said:
Having watched the documentary it's obvious that opening gate C didn't result in the direct deaths of the fans. What caused the deaths is what happened inside the ground after the gate was opened, This is covered by questions 2, 4, 5 from the Inquest which covers the lack of coordination inside the ground. The tunnel gates should have been shut, there should have been officers/stewards there directing fans to the other pens. The signage inside the ground was a joke and the fans just headed for the nearest entrance. Had this been in place I doubt anyone would have died.
I seem to remember in my days that outside was covered by the Police and inside was the domain of the club in terms of who was in charge. When I policed Elland Road inside the ground was called Special Duty paid for by Leeds United. The question being who was responsible for inside and directing fans SWFC or the Police?
BothI seem to remember in my days that outside was covered by the Police and inside was the domain of the club in terms of who was in charge. When I policed Elland Road inside the ground was called Special Duty paid for by Leeds United. The question being who was responsible for inside and directing fans SWFC or the Police?
Red 4 said:
XCP said:
The elephant in the room is obvious. Liverpool fans crushed other Liverpool fans. The whys and the wherefores have been much debated and discussed. There were failings by police and all the relevant authorities.
But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.
See question 7.But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14...
You can see it on the video.
One of the eye witnesses noted that "it got fairly crushy there, and so they opened up the gates"
"like all of us, I tried to get behind the goal {pens 3+4} and way too many of us tried to get behind the goal"
"we were literally pulling people through the turnstiles to get them out of the crush outside"
and a recollection from the police radio:
"FFS, if we don't open these gates people are going to die"
A horrible situation for all involved with a multitude of factors resulting in tragedy.
Poor policing of a huge crowd into a badly built stadium.
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