Hillsborough Inquest

[JNW1]

Red 4 said:

JNW1 said:

Red 4 said:

Ayahuasca said:

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

Lots of things.
The main one being closing the gates on the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 when the pens were full/ prior to opening Exit Gate C.

The gates to the tunnel were closed in previous years.

Exactly! However, my contention is the closing of those gates to the tunnel should have been a matter of routine process; the stewards inside the ground monitor how full pens 3 and 4 are getting and, when they've reached capacity, the gates are closed. Those pens were full before Gate C was opened so if the proper process had worked the gates to the tunnel to those pens would have been closed before Gate C was opened (and hence the tragedy avoided)..

However, what I don't understand is why people think it should have been the responsibility of the police officer in charge of the game to decide when to close the gates to the tunnel; surely others in the ground were better placed to determine when that was appropriate and they should have just told Duckenfield what they'd done rather than await an instruction from him to do it?

I agree. But it was the decision to open Gate C without ensuring that the tunnel was closed that led to the crushing.
That decision was made by Duckenfield.
"A blunder of the first magnitude" - Lord Justice Taylor.

But isn't the point that the pens were already full before Gate C was opened? That being the case if proper procedures had been in place - and worked correctly - access to the tunnel would have been closed before Gate C was opened and hence opening that gate would not have resulted in 96 people being killed.

Should Duckenfield have checked whether pens 3 and 4 were full - and therefore whether the access tunnel was closed - before he instructed Gate C to be opened? Well, firstly I'd argue that shouldn't have been necessary if proper procedures had been in place at the ground - the police officer in charge of a game shouldn't have to micro-manage routine stewarding IMO. Secondly, checking the access tunnel was closed does rather imply the police officer in charge was familiar enough with the ground to appreciate the implications of it being left open; however, I'm not sure Duckenfield was especially experienced in controlling games at Hillsborough (wasn't he drafted-in as a relatively late replacement?) so perhaps he genuinely didn't realise the potential consequences of his actions? If so shouldn't some blame also be apportioned to both the people who put an officer in charge of a major game who had little experience of the ground and also to those who were experienced enough to realise the implications of opening Gate C but didn't tell Duckenfield? There must have been some of those working at Hillsborough that afternoon (police or stewards, probably both).

Edited by JNW1 on Friday 6th December 18:23

[Red 4]

JNW1 said:

But isn't the point that the pens were already full before Gate C was opened? That being the case if proper procedures had been in place - and worked correctly - access to the tunnel would have been closed before Gate C was opened and hence opening that gate would not have resulted in 96 people being killed.

Should Duckenfield have checked whether pens 3 and 4 were full - and therefore whether the access tunnel was closed - before he instructed Gate C to be opened? Well, firstly I'd argue that shouldn't have been necessary if proper procedures had been in place at the ground - the police officer in charge of a game shouldn't have to micro-manage routine stewarding IMO. Secondly, checking the access tunnel was closed does rather imply the police officer in charge was familiar enough with the ground to appreciate the implications of it being left open; however, I'm not sure Duckenfield was especially experienced in controlling games at Hillsborough (wasn't he drafted-in as a relatively late replacement?) so perhaps he genuinely didn't realise the potential consequences of his actions? If so shouldn't some blame also be apportioned to both the people who put an officer in charge of a major game who had little experience of the ground and also to those who were experienced enough to realise the implications of opening Gate C but didn't tell Duckenfield? There must have been some of those working at Hillsborough that afternoon (police or stewards, probably both).

Edited by JNW1 on Friday 6th December 18:23

Fair points. Regarding "checking" if pens 3 and 4 were already full all Duckenfield needed to do was look out the window. The police control box directly overlooked the terraces at The Leppings Lane End. It would have been obvious.
Regarding opening Gate C that request was made at 2.48pm by Superintendent Marshall who was at the turnstiles/ on the concourse outside The Leppings Lane End.
The gate was opened at 2.52pm. What happened during those 4 minutes ? There was time to close the gates to the tunnel and/ or check if it had been done.
Regarding Duckenfield's experience, clearly he was not the best man for the job - he admits that now - but advice and support was available from other officers - Superintendent Bernard Murray in particular who was also inside the police control box.
My opinion - Duckenfield gave the order. The buck stops with him although others were also culpable. He did not foresee the consequences of his actions. He should have.
That is my opinion. It was also the opinion of Lord Justice Taylor.

[JNW1]

Red 4 said:

JNW1 said:

But isn't the point that the pens were already full before Gate C was opened? That being the case if proper procedures had been in place - and worked correctly - access to the tunnel would have been closed before Gate C was opened and hence opening that gate would not have resulted in 96 people being killed.

Should Duckenfield have checked whether pens 3 and 4 were full - and therefore whether the access tunnel was closed - before he instructed Gate C to be opened? Well, firstly I'd argue that shouldn't have been necessary if proper procedures had been in place at the ground - the police officer in charge of a game shouldn't have to micro-manage routine stewarding IMO. Secondly, checking the access tunnel was closed does rather imply the police officer in charge was familiar enough with the ground to appreciate the implications of it being left open; however, I'm not sure Duckenfield was especially experienced in controlling games at Hillsborough (wasn't he drafted-in as a relatively late replacement?) so perhaps he genuinely didn't realise the potential consequences of his actions? If so shouldn't some blame also be apportioned to both the people who put an officer in charge of a major game who had little experience of the ground and also to those who were experienced enough to realise the implications of opening Gate C but didn't tell Duckenfield? There must have been some of those working at Hillsborough that afternoon (police or stewards, probably both).

Edited by JNW1 on Friday 6th December 18:23

Fair points. Regarding "checking" if pens 3 and 4 were already full all Duckenfield needed to do was look out the window. The police control box directly overlooked the terraces at The Leppings Lane End. It would have been obvious.
Regarding opening Gate C that request was made at 2.48pm by Superintendent Marshall who was at the turnstiles/ on the concourse outside The Leppings Lane End.
The gate was opened at 2.52pm. What happened during those 4 minutes ? There was time to close the gates to the tunnel and/ or check if it had been done.
Regarding Duckenfield's experience, clearly he was not the best man for the job - he admits that now - but advice and support was available from other officers - Superintendent Bernard Murray in particular who was also inside the police control box.
My opinion - Duckenfield gave the order. The buck stops with him although others were also culpable. He did not foresee the consequences of his actions. He should have.
That is my opinion. It was also the opinion of Lord Justice Taylor.

But I ask again why was the access to the tunnel not closed once pens 3 and 4 had reached capacity? To my mind that's a simple, fundamental, task for the stewards and shouldn't have required an instruction from Duckenfield (or whoever happens to be the police officer in charge of a game at Hillsborough). If such a process wasn't in place - or was in place but failed to operate correctly - that's a fault of the club rather than the policing IMO.

And had that tunnel access been closed when it should have been opening Gate C probably wouldn't have resulted in any loss of life; people seem to focus on the opening of that gate as being the cause of the disaster but IMO it was actually the failure to close the access tunnel to the central pens.

[Steve Campbell]

McGee_22 said:

Your words and experience are very humbling for those of us who still struggle to understand some of the circumstances of the tragedy; I sincerely and genuinely hope that at sometime and in some way over the last 30 years you have managed to come to terms with the events of that day and have not had to dwell or recount those memories too often and to any lasting detriment to your own wellbeing.

Thank you for posting.

Thank you. An eloquent and very astute comment on the emotions that surround a tragedy like this. I think it’s fair to say that anyone directly involved went through some level of PTSD issues. I was lucky on the day, and have come to terms with it.

Quote
We are talking about humans, even football fans en masse have some semblance of logic and reason, they must have known within minutes that the tunnel pens were full, why keep on pushing ?

This is an interesting question and one I’ve asked myself. The truth of the matter is that the funnel of Leppings Lane and the design of the downward sloping tunnel into a caged arena was such that those behind had no clue what was happening ahead of them until it was too late. A crowd, once it gets to a certain density, becomes an entity of its own...and the individuals within it have less control of what they are doing.

[Red 4]

JNW1 said:

Red 4 said:

JNW1 said:

But isn't the point that the pens were already full before Gate C was opened? That being the case if proper procedures had been in place - and worked correctly - access to the tunnel would have been closed before Gate C was opened and hence opening that gate would not have resulted in 96 people being killed.

Should Duckenfield have checked whether pens 3 and 4 were full - and therefore whether the access tunnel was closed - before he instructed Gate C to be opened? Well, firstly I'd argue that shouldn't have been necessary if proper procedures had been in place at the ground - the police officer in charge of a game shouldn't have to micro-manage routine stewarding IMO. Secondly, checking the access tunnel was closed does rather imply the police officer in charge was familiar enough with the ground to appreciate the implications of it being left open; however, I'm not sure Duckenfield was especially experienced in controlling games at Hillsborough (wasn't he drafted-in as a relatively late replacement?) so perhaps he genuinely didn't realise the potential consequences of his actions? If so shouldn't some blame also be apportioned to both the people who put an officer in charge of a major game who had little experience of the ground and also to those who were experienced enough to realise the implications of opening Gate C but didn't tell Duckenfield? There must have been some of those working at Hillsborough that afternoon (police or stewards, probably both).

Edited by JNW1 on Friday 6th December 18:23

Fair points. Regarding "checking" if pens 3 and 4 were already full all Duckenfield needed to do was look out the window. The police control box directly overlooked the terraces at The Leppings Lane End. It would have been obvious.
Regarding opening Gate C that request was made at 2.48pm by Superintendent Marshall who was at the turnstiles/ on the concourse outside The Leppings Lane End.
The gate was opened at 2.52pm. What happened during those 4 minutes ? There was time to close the gates to the tunnel and/ or check if it had been done.
Regarding Duckenfield's experience, clearly he was not the best man for the job - he admits that now - but advice and support was available from other officers - Superintendent Bernard Murray in particular who was also inside the police control box.
My opinion - Duckenfield gave the order. The buck stops with him although others were also culpable. He did not foresee the consequences of his actions. He should have.
That is my opinion. It was also the opinion of Lord Justice Taylor.

But I ask again why was the access to the tunnel not closed once pens 3 and 4 had reached capacity? To my mind that's a simple, fundamental, task for the stewards and shouldn't have required an instruction from Duckenfield (or whoever happens to be the police officer in charge of a game at Hillsborough). If such a process wasn't in place - or was in place but failed to operate correctly - that's a fault of the club rather than the policing IMO.

And had that tunnel access been closed when it should have been opening Gate C probably wouldn't have resulted in any loss of life; people seem to focus on the opening of that gate as being the cause of the disaster but IMO it was actually the failure to close the access tunnel to the central pens.

The reason why the gates on the tunnel leading to the central pens were not closed has never been fully expained.
You make a very good point.
In previous years the tunnel was closed either by stewards or by police when pens 3 and 4 were full.
Nevertheless, Duckenfield should have made sure the tunnel was closed.
He could see pens 3 and 4 were already full from the control box.
Even John Motson commented on the overcrowding/ the available space in the other pens long before Gate C was opened.
That's my opinion. Duckenfield's actions and lack of foresight caused the crushing in the pens.

[Ayahuasca]

Red 4 said:

The reason why the gates on the tunnel leading to the central pens were not closed has never been fully expained.

What was the design of the gates? If they swung out from the side wall like normal gates, how could they be closed if the space they need to swing was already full of packed-in fans?

You mention that 4 minutes elapsed between giving the order to open gate C and the gate being opened, and that that should have been sufficient time to check the tunnel gates.

Question - how do you physically move through the crowd to check the gates in four minutes, if the space you need to move through is packed with fans?

[Ayahuasca]

Ok here is a pic of the tunnel with the offending gate. If the space in the gateway is completely full of jam packed fans, how are you going to close it ?

[Red 4]

Ayahuasca said:

What was the design of the gates? If they swung out from the side wall like normal gates, how could they be closed if the space they need to swing was already full of packed-in fans?

You mention that 4 minutes elapsed between giving the order to open gate C and the gate being opened, and that that should have been sufficient time to check the tunnel gates.

Question - how do you physically move through the crowd to check the gates in four minutes, if the space you need to move through is packed with fans?

No, the gate to the tunnel was not obstructed.
The initial crushing was outside the ground.
The tunnel was in an area that was very quiet in comparison - inside the ground.

4 minutes elapsed between the request to open Gate C and it being opened.

If you've genuinely got an interest in Hillsborough can I suggest you watch the documentary first aired in 2016.
It's on YouTube.
You can see it for yourself - it's easier than me trying to explain - no offence.

[Ayahuasca]

Ok, so if the gate was not obstructed, maybe it looked a lot like that photo on the day. So Gate C was opened and the rushing fans saw the inviting, non obstructed tunnel ahead of them. Like the photo. But the pens, just the other side of the tunnel were full. You can’t see the pens from outside the tunnel. But if the pens were full the only space the new Gate C fans could fill was the tunnel itself. How many fans could physically fit in the tunnel? Look at it, it is not big or wide. So once the fastest, most eager fans had filled up the tunnel, it would have looked very full to the rest of the fans. The ones in the tunnel possibly thought oh st I am stuck, but the ones outside must have been pressing against a solid wall of red polyester covered flesh to get into the tunnel.



Clearly, by the time it was realised that there was a problem and the tunnel gate should be shut, there was no way of shutting it.

[Ayahuasca]

My conclusion - tragedy, multiple causes, multiple failures, wrong to try to pin it on one person, SYP post tragedy actions not good, but nor did they cause the tragedy, no good seeking ‘closure’ because sometimes st happens. Good things came of it (awareness, stadium design, fan behaviour). Move on.

[Cantaloupe]

Just a point of interest , pre opening of the fateful gate, what was the reason the centre pens were already at
capacity and the side pens not, and was the situation in the centre pens already dangerous ?

[JNW1]

Red 4 said:

JNW1 said:

Red 4 said:

JNW1 said:

But isn't the point that the pens were already full before Gate C was opened? That being the case if proper procedures had been in place - and worked correctly - access to the tunnel would have been closed before Gate C was opened and hence opening that gate would not have resulted in 96 people being killed.

Should Duckenfield have checked whether pens 3 and 4 were full - and therefore whether the access tunnel was closed - before he instructed Gate C to be opened? Well, firstly I'd argue that shouldn't have been necessary if proper procedures had been in place at the ground - the police officer in charge of a game shouldn't have to micro-manage routine stewarding IMO. Secondly, checking the access tunnel was closed does rather imply the police officer in charge was familiar enough with the ground to appreciate the implications of it being left open; however, I'm not sure Duckenfield was especially experienced in controlling games at Hillsborough (wasn't he drafted-in as a relatively late replacement?) so perhaps he genuinely didn't realise the potential consequences of his actions? If so shouldn't some blame also be apportioned to both the people who put an officer in charge of a major game who had little experience of the ground and also to those who were experienced enough to realise the implications of opening Gate C but didn't tell Duckenfield? There must have been some of those working at Hillsborough that afternoon (police or stewards, probably both).

Edited by JNW1 on Friday 6th December 18:23

Fair points. Regarding "checking" if pens 3 and 4 were already full all Duckenfield needed to do was look out the window. The police control box directly overlooked the terraces at The Leppings Lane End. It would have been obvious.
Regarding opening Gate C that request was made at 2.48pm by Superintendent Marshall who was at the turnstiles/ on the concourse outside The Leppings Lane End.
The gate was opened at 2.52pm. What happened during those 4 minutes ? There was time to close the gates to the tunnel and/ or check if it had been done.
Regarding Duckenfield's experience, clearly he was not the best man for the job - he admits that now - but advice and support was available from other officers - Superintendent Bernard Murray in particular who was also inside the police control box.
My opinion - Duckenfield gave the order. The buck stops with him although others were also culpable. He did not foresee the consequences of his actions. He should have.
That is my opinion. It was also the opinion of Lord Justice Taylor.

But I ask again why was the access to the tunnel not closed once pens 3 and 4 had reached capacity? To my mind that's a simple, fundamental, task for the stewards and shouldn't have required an instruction from Duckenfield (or whoever happens to be the police officer in charge of a game at Hillsborough). If such a process wasn't in place - or was in place but failed to operate correctly - that's a fault of the club rather than the policing IMO.

And had that tunnel access been closed when it should have been opening Gate C probably wouldn't have resulted in any loss of life; people seem to focus on the opening of that gate as being the cause of the disaster but IMO it was actually the failure to close the access tunnel to the central pens.

The reason why the gates on the tunnel leading to the central pens were not closed has never been fully expained.
You make a very good point.
In previous years the tunnel was closed either by stewards or by police when pens 3 and 4 were full.
Nevertheless, Duckenfield should have made sure the tunnel was closed.
He could see pens 3 and 4 were already full from the control box.
Even John Motson commented on the overcrowding/ the available space in the other pens long before Gate C was opened.
That's my opinion. Duckenfield's actions and lack of foresight caused the crushing in the pens.

The tunnel should have been closed by reference to whatever the established club procedure was once pens 3 and 4 were full; those pens were full before Gate C was opened so if the club procedure had worked correctly nobody dies as a result of opening Gate C. Therefore, IMO at least part of the blame for the disaster has to sit at the door of the club; either they didn't have a proper procedure in place whereby access to the tunnel was closed once pens 3 and 4 were full or they did and it didn't work properly - either way that's a failing of the club in my view.

Should Duckenfield have asked the question before opening Gate C? Perhaps someone with experience of Hillsborough would have done but I'm not convinced he had that level of knowledge which brings us back to the question of who made the decision to appoint Duckenfield to take charge of such a major event at a ground with which he wasn't terribly familiar? They are also partly to blame for the disaster IMO.

[Steve Campbell]

Ayahuasca said:

Ok, so if the gate was not obstructed, maybe it looked a lot like that photo on the day. So Gate C was opened and the rushing fans saw the inviting, non obstructed tunnel ahead of them. Like the photo. But the pens, just the other side of the tunnel were full. You can’t see the pens from outside the tunnel. But if the pens were full the only space the new Gate C fans could fill was the tunnel itself. How many fans could physically fit in the tunnel? Look at it, it is not big or wide. So once the fastest, most eager fans had filled up the tunnel, it would have looked very full to the rest of the fans. The ones in the tunnel possibly thought oh st I am stuck, but the ones outside must have been pressing against a solid wall of red polyester covered flesh to get into the tunnel.



Clearly, by the time it was realised that there was a problem and the tunnel gate should be shut, there was no way of shutting it.

I can’t talk to what the fans behind did ....but here’s my take. I was stood under the sign B looking for friends when the gate opened for the first time, so turned and walked down the tunnel. It wasn’t jam packed, kind of normal.... but there was a rush behind me of those fans eager to get a good “spec” to watch the game after the gate was opened. I’d never been to the ground before so thought the only was to the terraces was through the tunnel, even though I had stood looking for friends for 5 mins. The pens were over full, but not crushed at that time. In the pens the crowd ebbed and flowed...surges. As the crowd surged, fans from the downward facing tunnel flowed into the gaps left behind. If you had been in a large crowd in a standing terrace you know how it works. You can’t control the surge, you go with it and then make your way back to your terrace step......but the release of pressure never happened. The surge tightened the noose, and the pressure of fans in the sloping tunnel filled the gap....I’m sure the tunnel was crushed aswell....but the movement was always forward/downwards. Despite entering the tunnel only minutes before kick off, I ended up quite near the front of Pen 4. I don’t know how, but the initial surges luckily took me between the metal standing rails. People died behind me in Pen 4 as they were trapped against the metal posts. The initial surges were tight but not abnormal except you couldn’t step back Then there was no where to go. Don’t forget the game had kicked off and Liverpool attacked. Semi final, excited crowd can hear the roars but can’t see the game, they want to get in after the fiasco outside to see the game. They have no clue of the tragedy unfolding ahead of them. I was stood on my tiptoes leaning forward, one arm above the crowd, one by my side. Each surge increased the pressure until it was hard to breath and everyone was fighting for breath. absolutely nothing you could do but focus on trying to breath.
My best mate and his girlfriend came through the turnstiles juts after KO. He said by that time the tunnel was crammed, but he knew the ground so went around the stand to the outside pens and watched it unfold. Very traumatic for him and his girlfriend also.

[McGee_22]

Thank you Steve, sobering yet chilling too.

I don't wish in any way for you to have to recount those events any more than you would want to.

Please feel completely free to politely or even impolitely decline, but if I may ask one question; were you ever asked to, or did you ever offer to, give any evidence or your testimony to the Police or any of the Inquests or trials at all?

As I said, thank you for your opinions, thoughts and memories; they are still moments of crystal clear clarity in a thread which contains far too much opinion and anger still, 30 years after an event which did horrify a Nation, but was very obviously not treated correctly in the aftermath with perhaps nearly equally devasting effects on peoples psychology and wellbeing as the events of that day themselves.

[Steve Campbell]

I’m happy to answer questions on my direct experience to a certain extent. I probably won’t get into debate though. As I’ve said, I’ve come to terms with it all. I was lucky for myself and lucky that my friends suffered no physical injury, though as already alluded to, everyone there on that day will carry some level of scars....some deep, and some not.

I can’t remember whether I offered or if they had my name / address from season ticket but 2 officers came to my flat to take a witness statement. I had to explain what happened to me, mark on a map of the pens where I was etc. Part of my statement included praising some of the bobbies at the time. There was one officer immediately in front of me pitch side who was doing his best to get people out and screaming at the crowd to go back (obviously futile). I often wonder how he coped with the aftermath. There were institutional issues with the police / ground / security on that day and some individual catastrophic decisions and behaviour.....but your everyday policeman at pitch side was thrown into an unbelievable disaster that no one could have come through unscathed.

[McGee_22]

Thank you Steve for your telling and invaluable contributions, and for what's it worth, well done for having the fortitude and inner strength to come through the event and the so far endless aftermath with your physical health and wellbeing intact.

[JNW1]

Steve Campbell said:

There were institutional issues with the police / ground / security on that day and some individual catastrophic decisions and behaviour...

Thank you for giving such an honest account - great credit to you that you feel able to speak so openly about that awful day.

Your comment above sums it up very well for me. There were a whole host of things that went wrong that day and, while David Duckenfield was far from blameless, IMO it's not reasonable to try to hold him solely responsible for the 96 deaths.

[Ayahuasca]

The crush barriers in the pens seem to have failed too. Are these designed to fail if the pressure is too great or are they supposed to hold up regardless?

The steel pitch fence should obviously have been designed to fail if the pressure was too great, was it? Was the designer of the fence ever called to account ?

[Red 4]

JNW1 said:

Thank you for giving such an honest account - great credit to you that you feel able to speak so openly about that awful day.

Your comment above sums it up very well for me. There were a whole host of things that went wrong that day and, while David Duckenfield was far from blameless, IMO it's not reasonable to try to hold him solely responsible for the 96 deaths.

Agreed. Thanks Steve. That can't have been easy for you.

JNW - Nobody is holding Duckenfield solely responsible.
There were a catalogue of errors, omissions and failings. Nobody is suggesting otherwise.
However, Duckenfield's failings were not limited just to the opening of Exit Gate C and failing to close the tunnel.
His failings go much, much further than that. I have some sympathy for Duckenfield but it is very limited, if I'm honest.
Some people who knew him ( police officers ) have been scathing in their criticism of Duckenfield - likewise LJ Taylor and many others who examined the events of the day in detail. Many have been much more critical of Duckenfield than I have been on this thread.

Edited by Red 4 on Saturday 7th December 12:36

[Phil Dicky]

From what I've heard, read and seen it appears Duckenfield was a man promoted beyond his abilities.