The 'No to the EU' campaign Vol 2

[KrissKross]

cookie118 said:

This sneering tone of the outers is utterly repellant.
They seem to think no-one should have any concerns at all and that we should just accept it'll be fine because boris/farage etc say it will. If they do have concerns they are to be labelled as cowards or otherwise.

I'm a young mechanical engineer. Patrick minford says that if we left the eu we would eliminate manufacturing. Where does that put me career wise? You want me to vote out and put my entire career, the rest of my life at risk for some uncertainty? That's not cowardice or 'bedwetting'-voting in is the sensible thing for me to do.

Patrick Minford has said no such thing. Link?

I am an engineer also (middle aged), will you lose your skills by voting leave?

[turbobloke]

cookie118 said:

s2art said:

What is somewhat amusing is that both people think that Brexit will make a difference to their livelihoods. It wont.

This sneering tone of the outers is utterly repellant.

Having read and re-read s2art's post it doesn't look to have a sneering tone. Protesting too much?

It expressed a particular form of amusement - a surprised form of amusement possibly though that's my interpretation not necesarily the poster's intent - that anyone could be so certain that remaining within a dysfunctional supranational experiment with its basketcase eurozone, will make a positive difference to livelihoods. It's a reasonable perspective.

[John145]

cookie118 said:

s2art said:

What is somewhat amusing is that both people think that Brexit will make a difference to their livelihoods. It wont.

This sneering tone of the outers is utterly repellant.
They seem to think no-one should have any concerns at all and that we should just accept it'll be fine because boris/farage etc say it will. If they do have concerns they are to be labelled as cowards or otherwise.

I'm a young mechanical engineer. Patrick minford says that if we left the eu we would eliminate manufacturing. Where does that put me career wise? You want me to vote out and put my entire career, the rest of my life at risk for some uncertainty? That's not cowardice or 'bedwetting'-voting in is the sensible thing for me to do.

I don't seem to remember Nissan, jlr, vw, Aston Martin, RR all looking to close down.

What you should be nervous of is protectionism. That will see you out of a job quicker than free trade.

[anonymous-user]

KrissKross said:

Patrick Minford has said no such thing. Link?

I am an engineer also (middle aged), will you lose your skills by voting leave?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7001119/Brexit-will-boost-our-economy-says-Professor-Patrick-Minford.html

[turbobloke]

cookie118 said:

KrissKross said:

Patrick Minford has said no such thing. Link?

I am an engineer also (middle aged), will you lose your skills by voting leave?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7001119/Brexit-will-boost-our-economy-says-Professor-Patrick-Minford.html

"Patrick minford says that if we left the eu we would eliminate manufacturing."

In that link the qouted phrase is 'mostly eliminate' your omission is telling.

Eliminate = disappear, mostly eliminate = reduce markedly.

Sounds like another spell of Blair, and he did indeed say no such thing.

[KrissKross]

I have found the perfect way this referendum should be decided:

https://youtu.be/pUAB8vFUVEs

[///ajd]

turbobloke said:

cookie118 said:

KrissKross said:

Patrick Minford has said no such thing. Link?

I am an engineer also (middle aged), will you lose your skills by voting leave?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7001119/Brexit-will-boost-our-economy-says-Professor-Patrick-Minford.html

"Patrick minford says that if we left the eu we would eliminate manufacturing."

In that link the qouted phrase is 'mostly eliminate' your omission is telling.

Eliminate = disappear, mostly eliminate = reduce markedly.

Sounds like another spell of Blair, and he did indeed say no such thing.

He did pretty much dismiss the entire UK car industry as expendible and its loss was a price worth paying for brexit. In my book that exposes him as a naive academic.

He is the lead economist for the official leave campaign.

However much you hate brussels, this kind of replacement muppetry is the last thing we need.

I get where you are coming from AZ - I have to confess I shake my head at some of the syupid things the EU says/does. However it is partly due to their crassness that wehave to retain some influence and reign in the more extreme ideas. If we don't, who will?

[s2art]

cookie118 said:

s2art said:

What is somewhat amusing is that both people think that Brexit will make a difference to their livelihoods. It wont.

This sneering tone of the outers is utterly repellant.
They seem to think no-one should have any concerns at all and that we should just accept it'll be fine because boris/farage etc say it will. If they do have concerns they are to be labelled as cowards or otherwise.

I'm a young mechanical engineer. Patrick minford says that if we left the eu we would eliminate manufacturing. Where does that put me career wise? You want me to vote out and put my entire career, the rest of my life at risk for some uncertainty? That's not cowardice or 'bedwetting'-voting in is the sensible thing for me to do.

All Minford was saying is that the UK will continue down the path it has been on for decades, more services less heavy industry.He sees this as a good thing as its a way of competing globally by specialising.
Personally I think him wrong on this as the advent of advanced 3D printers will change the face and economics of manufacturing. He is right that design will become increasingly important.

[0000]

cookie118 said:

I'm a young mechanical engineer. Patrick minford says that if we left the eu we would eliminate manufacturing. Where does that put me career wise? You want me to vote out and put my entire career, the rest of my life at risk for some uncertainty? That's not cowardice or 'bedwetting'-voting in is the sensible thing for me to do.

It puts you in higher value, better paid roles. Jobs requiring knowledge of mechanical engineering aren't going to go away, being sat on a shop floor waiting feeding materials into a machine while getting paid bugger all would go away.

[alock]

JawKnee said:

alock said:

Almost everyone I know wants to leave. There are two exceptions and they are both very outspoken.
One setup a company 10 years ago selling medical products throughout the EU. They don't sell outside the EU.
The other works for an IT company providing services to airports throughout the EU.

I understand both of these people have very specific personal reasons to remain, but that is all it is, a concern that their jobs might under threat. They don't have a greater ideological reason to remain.

Yes, the prospect of losing your livelihood is not as great an ideological argument as the UK being able to make its own bendy cucumber laws....

Get a grip.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to remain because their livelihood is on the line. I would probably be the same.

Do you really think that the only ideological reason for voting leave is the straightness of cucumbers? And you're telling me to get a grip. Have you actually read any pro-leave arguments from those wanting to leave instead of parody arguments from those who actually want to remain?

[AstonZagato]

///ajd said:

I get where you are coming from AZ - I have to confess I shake my head at some of the syupid things the EU says/does. However it is partly due to their crassness that wehave to retain some influence and reign in the more extreme ideas. If we don't, who will?

Sadly, I think the UK's voice gets lost. And where it is heard, it is from politicians that the electorate either rejected (Kinnock) or would run a mile from (Mandleson). Without us (and our money) the Eu might actually be forced to reform. But don't hold your breath.

[Tony427]

I'm a Brexiteer and it seems everyone I know is one too.

I am also half Dutch with a large family still living in the Netherlands and they are all Brexiteers also as they see the harm that the EU has done to even pteviously stalwart european countries such as the Netherlands. They hope that once we leave the ball will start roilling for other countries to exercise their democratic rights.

Therefore I thought I knew most things about just how bad the EU was, until I watched Brexit the movie.

I urge anyone who had an interest in the EU referendum to watch this film. Share it with everyone you can.

The facts that the film is stuffed with are simply mindblowing, and if remainers disagree with any of them please get back to us, tell us where the film is inaccurate, and justify why the EU can carry on the way it is.

To start off with I'll give you the fact that over 10,000 EU officials get paid more than our PM.

Thats 10,000, or one in 5 EU beaurocrats. Please remainers justify that, and the fact that they get a lower tax rate, and free health insurance, and enhanced pensions........even free Viagra.

Talk about a European Political Elite.

Its even worse than even a cynical sod like me thought it was.

Brexit the movie...pass it on.

https://youtu.be/UTMxfAkxfQ0


Cheers,

Tony

[zygalski]

turbobloke said:

cookie118 said:

s2art said:

What is somewhat amusing is that both people think that Brexit will make a difference to their livelihoods. It wont.

This sneering tone of the outers is utterly repellant.

Having read and re-read s2art's post it doesn't look to have a sneering tone. Protesting too much?

It expressed a particular form of amusement - a surprised form of amusement possibly though that's my interpretation not necesarily the poster's intent - that anyone could be so certain that remaining within a dysfunctional supranational experiment with its basketcase eurozone, will make a positive difference to livelihoods. It's a reasonable perspective.

Likewise, I'm not sneering at all when I say that to someone who apparently 'works' while spending 90%+ of his time on here peddling at all hours the same fascist nonsense probably doesn't give a damn about the average Joe & the possible economic impact on him of voting to leave the EU. I mean, let's face it... after Brexit you'll still have a broadband connection.

[Guybrush]

Tony427 said:

I'm a Brexiteer and it seems everyone I know is one too.

I am also half Dutch with a large family still living in the Netherlands and they are all Brexiteers also as they see the harm that the EU has done to even pteviously stalwart european countries such as the Netherlands. They hope that once we leave the ball will start roilling for other countries to exercise their democratic rights. Brexit the movie...pass it on.

https://youtu.be/UTMxfAkxfQ0


Cheers,

Tony

I would guess most of the 10,000(!) EU penpushers paid more than our Prime Minister will be terrified of other countries wanting to exercise their democratic rights. That fear and the money they are handling (i.e. our money) buys a lot of Remainian fear mongering.

[davepoth]

AstonZagato said:

///ajd said:

I get where you are coming from AZ - I have to confess I shake my head at some of the syupid things the EU says/does. However it is partly due to their crassness that wehave to retain some influence and reign in the more extreme ideas. If we don't, who will?

Sadly, I think the UK's voice gets lost. And where it is heard, it is from politicians that the electorate either rejected (Kinnock) or would run a mile from (Mandleson). Without us (and our money) the Eu might actually be forced to reform. But don't hold your breath.

I think leaving will have consequences for the EU. Whether it will be that the EU undertakes the fundamental reform it needs or that the EU collapses under the weight of its own hubris and dogma is another matter.

I agree with your post above about the Euro; as with a lot of things in Europe the halfway house that Brussels has managed to sneak to doesn't really do the job, and either a lot more Europe is required (full fiscal and political union, and all that it entails) or a lot less Europe, back towards a trading bloc of a much looser configuration.

[Hugh Jarse]

The greatest Briton and advocate of freedom, democracy and people power and American revolutionary, Im guessing would not be pleased by this unelected politburo that runs the EU.
Im a true Europhile, but feck me do I detest undemocratic sinister practices of the EU.
Everyone has their own agenda for voting IN or OUT, but mine is a desire to protect democracy, which makes it a clear OUT from me.
Everything else pales.

[XCP]

Surely Paine would argue that the UK needs protecting from its own Government. I don't see how exiting the EU would alter that.

[turbobloke]

XCP said:

Surely Paine would argue that the UK needs protecting from its own Government. I don't see how exiting the EU would alter that.

At the moment its 'government' includes the EU via Treaties and Directives.

Get out of the EU and there's less to be protected from, and as we have the names of MPs on ballot papers, as opposed to EC drones whose name we never get to see on ballot papers for us to mark, we can take a more meaningful part in the process.

[Hugh Jarse]

turbobloke said:

At the moment its 'government' includes the EU via Treaties and Directives.
Get out of the EU and there's less to be protected from, and as we have the names of MPs on ballot papers, as opposed to EC drones whose name we never get to see on ballot papers for us to mark, we can take a more meaningful part in the process.

Exactly this, ta.

One day we will have direct democracy, there is more democracy in Eurovision than normal politics.
However we are getting a plebiscite on this and that is a good start.
Westminster democracy is stifling, but it beats the pants off how the EU is run - a big faceless undemocratic obelisk of we-know-whats-best-for-you.

Many remainers are remainers because they like the idealistic nature of the EU current direction.
Austria just voted in a nationalist president, what happens when the faceless moguls get changed and have different policies, will they still like it? How will they vote it out? The lack of democratic accountability is high risk.

[XCP]

turbobloke said:

At the moment its 'government' includes the EU via Treaties and Directives.

Get out of the EU and there's less to be protected from, and as we have the names of MPs on ballot papers, as opposed to EC drones whose name we never get to see on ballot papers for us to mark, we can take a more meaningful part in the process.

Sadly I don't see our Parliamentary system as being significantly more democratic than Brussels or Strasbourg. I get one vote every 5 years or so for both, and then they basically do what they like, it seems to me.
Our higher chamber doesn't even pretend to be democratic.