Discussion
jakesmith said:
This is going to blow your mind but... there are often reasons why something happens. That doesn't make it right.
That's absolutely true. There are always reasons why things happen. The problem, especially on the Internet, is the lack of nuance. It's very hard to tell if somebody is using the "reason" as some kind of mealy-mouthed justification for the attack happening or whether they genuinely condemn it as having no place in our society. Especially given the vitriol that Jones attracts on threads such as this for daring to have his own opinions.Evanivitch said:
Except Owen Jones' personality isn't the reason it happened. It may be the excuse used by the thug, but saying the reason sits with the victim is victim blaming. Just like it would be in any crime like fraud, rape or murder.
Victims aren't the reason.
So you say, and in general it might be true, but actually sometimes the victim is the cause of his own misfortune. Victims aren't the reason.
Evanivitch said:
Except Owen Jones' personality isn't the reason it happened. It may be the excuse used by the thug, but saying the reason sits with the victim is victim blaming. Just like it would be in any crime like fraud, rape or murder.
Victims aren't the reason.
The High Court Judge from the seventies that said wearing a short skirt was a factor in the rape - and then applying a sentence that reflected that, is 'victim blaming'. Victims aren't the reason.
Here there is nothing to suggest jakesmith suggests the thugs are less culpable than in any other work-a-day assault, he's just proffering potential motive/explanation, along with condemnation.
El stovey said:
768 said:
El stovey said:
Where have I twisted anything?
He's literally said he condemns it yet you conclude he doesn't.El stovey said:
I condemn the attack BUT . . .
He didn't say but, other than to reiterate that he condemns it.If someone you agree with politically was attacked, you wouldn’t come on saying “I condemn the attack” you’d just say you thought it was disgusting or whatever.
They’re not really condemning anything. They just want to say it’s basically his fault, but because it sounds really bad they have to say they condemn it first.
If say Nigel Farage gets a drink thrown over him. I might think it’s bad but funny. If I come on here saying “I condemn the attack, but he’s a dick so you can see why it happened.” That’s not really a condemnation is it? I’m saying I condemn it but it’s Nigel’s fault. The condemnation is meaningless. It’s just a way of justifying saying you can see why people throw drinks on him.
I would assume you believe in freedom of speech. Try expressing your political views loudly in a range of pubs and see how long it takes before someone goes beyond words and lumps you or throws something over you. That would be wrong but I think you'd understand why it happened and your own role in that.
Evanivitch said:
768 said:
El stovey said:
Where have I twisted anything?
He's literally said he condemns it yet you conclude he doesn't.El stovey said:
I condemn the attack BUT . . .
He didn't say but, other than to reiterate that he condemns it.It reminds me of a thread about 9/11.
If a poster writes.
“I condemn the 9/11 attacks. American foreign policy is inflaming the region. Maybe the terrorist were motivated by that? I condemn the attack though.”
It’s quite different from
‘I condemn the 9/11 attacks. I think the terrorists will justify it by saying it was a reaction to American foreign policy. I condemn the attacks though.”
By adding your view of American foreign policy inflaming the region, the emphasis changes from an explanation to more of a justification.
As adding a view of Owen being obnoxious changes the post in question.
I can imagine a scenario where Jones and his party are being loud and obnoxious in a pub.
We've all seen the train wreck in slow motion and can see that the situation isn't going to end well, yet the lack of self awareness on one side is pushing the limits of another.
When it all kicks off, observers will probably comment along the lines of " I saw that coming "
Doesn't make it right, but it happens, especially if alcohol is involved.
We've all seen the train wreck in slow motion and can see that the situation isn't going to end well, yet the lack of self awareness on one side is pushing the limits of another.
When it all kicks off, observers will probably comment along the lines of " I saw that coming "
Doesn't make it right, but it happens, especially if alcohol is involved.
amusingduck said:
DeepEnd said:
If you condemn the milkshake, you should condemn this attack.
Is there any actual evidence that this was a politically motivated attack? If it is politically driven, would you put it in the same category as Farage and his Milkshakes?
Edited by DeepEnd on Sunday 18th August 11:25
jakesmith said:
It's called a discussion, whereby people postulate and hypothesis on the cause of events and the motivations of involved parties. It makes for a lively and interesting debate around events and topics and that creates an engaging forum. It doesn't mean that everyone that offers an explanation as to why something that happened, thinks it is OK or justified.
You will never, ever, see as an example, Corbyn, condemn an act by a group he is aligned with in the way I condemned Jones being pushed over. He would say 'I condemn all violence'. I explicitly condemned the act in question. In fact, I did it twice for good measure in one post.
Once more: an explanation is not the same as a justification
My personal theory is that he may have been attacked by climate protestors who mistakenly believed that he owned a yaught which wasn't made of carbon fibre........You will never, ever, see as an example, Corbyn, condemn an act by a group he is aligned with in the way I condemned Jones being pushed over. He would say 'I condemn all violence'. I explicitly condemned the act in question. In fact, I did it twice for good measure in one post.
Once more: an explanation is not the same as a justification
DeepEnd said:
I’ve already said it isn’t confirmed, but given he says he was specifically targeted (not his 5 mates), this suggests it could well be a potential explanation. That he being gay made it a homophobic attack, or even he was so gobby in the pub he effectively started it are also theories.
If it is politically driven, would you put it in the same category as Farage and his Milkshakes?
Maybe he was just being a bigger, more obnoxious twit than his mates?If it is politically driven, would you put it in the same category as Farage and his Milkshakes?
DeepEnd said:
Taylor James said:
Have we seen any pictures or CCTV yet or is Owen still looking for his contact lens.
I'd like to see some pictures before getting too worked up about this. Assaults causing significant pain and injury are always to be condemned and especially so if motivated by homophobia or racism, etc, but if he has simply got involved in a spot of handbags and has a graze and bruised pride he needs to grow up a bit (more).
The level of physical injury is not really the issue here if it turns out to be politically motivated. I'd like to see some pictures before getting too worked up about this. Assaults causing significant pain and injury are always to be condemned and especially so if motivated by homophobia or racism, etc, but if he has simply got involved in a spot of handbags and has a graze and bruised pride he needs to grow up a bit (more).
Did you think the Farage milkshakes were fine and he just needed to grow up a bit?
Taylor James said:
Everything happens for a reason. We might not agree with it but that's tough. Voicing an opinion about why something might have happened does not automatically dilute the condemnation. Jones is a provocative individual. I can see why that might provoke some people beyond words. It's unfortunate that not everyone restricts their disagreements and dislikes to words but that's people for you. I feel exactly the same way about Farage. He should not have stuff thrown over him but he infuriates some people and is therefore always at risk of one of them losing their self-control.
I would assume you believe in freedom of speech. Try expressing your political views loudly in a range of pubs and see how long it takes before someone goes beyond words and lumps you or throws something over you. That would be wrong but I think you'd understand why it happened and your own role in that.
Sure but if I write I would assume you believe in freedom of speech. Try expressing your political views loudly in a range of pubs and see how long it takes before someone goes beyond words and lumps you or throws something over you. That would be wrong but I think you'd understand why it happened and your own role in that.
“I condemn the attacks, you can see why it happened though, you can’t go around expressing political views loudly in pubs.”
I’m saying it’s the guy who was attacked own fault.
It’s not just offering an explanation, it’s my expressing an opinion of the victim, that changes the emphasis from an explanation to blaming them.
“I condemn the rape. The girl wasn’t appropriately dressed, the rapists maybe thought she was asking for it.”
“I condemn the rape. The rapists will probably try to justify it by her clothing. “
Which one sounds like blaming the victim?
I think Owen Jones is a complete t
t but most of these posts aren’t really condemning the attack, they’re just people who don’t like him, saying he was asking for it. I am annoyed about this. Young man with mates gets into a scuffle in the early hours. That's it, nothing else.
He was just on BBC TV with no evidence of any injury to his head at all. As to the injury to his back, I got worse than that last weekend playing football in the garden with my son.
Storm in a teacup.
He was just on BBC TV with no evidence of any injury to his head at all. As to the injury to his back, I got worse than that last weekend playing football in the garden with my son.
Storm in a teacup.
El stovey said:
Evanivitch said:
768 said:
El stovey said:
Where have I twisted anything?
He's literally said he condemns it yet you conclude he doesn't.El stovey said:
I condemn the attack BUT . . .
He didn't say but, other than to reiterate that he condemns it.It reminds me of a thread about 9/11.
If a poster writes.
“I condemn the 9/11 attacks. American foreign policy is inflaming the region. Maybe the terrorist were motivated by that? I condemn the attack though.”
It’s quite different from
‘I condemn the 9/11 attacks. I think the terrorists will justify it by saying it was a reaction to American foreign policy. I condemn the attacks though.”
By adding your view of American foreign policy inflaming the region, the emphasis changes from an explanation to more of a justification.
As adding a view of Owen being obnoxious changes the post in question.
The wording in your second paragraph is ridiculously verbose and people don’t actually talk like that in real life. I’m an articulate person and expressed myself clearly. Sorry you didn’t grasp my point as others have. I even made it easier by repeating my specific condemnation twice.
Situations always have a reason. Pointing it out or postulating on it doesn’t mean you agree with it. It’s not difficult
Jazzy Jag said:
DeepEnd said:
I’ve already said it isn’t confirmed, but given he says he was specifically targeted (not his 5 mates), this suggests it could well be a potential explanation. That he being gay made it a homophobic attack, or even he was so gobby in the pub he effectively started it are also theories.
If it is politically driven, would you put it in the same category as Farage and his Milkshakes?
Maybe he was just being a bigger, more obnoxious twit than his mates?If it is politically driven, would you put it in the same category as Farage and his Milkshakes?
It’s also possible a few beers in he’s mouthed off about his brexity momentumy ideas and this has would up some other patrons - perhaps even directly. That would bring it back to a political attack though.
Milkshakes and fisticuffs aren’t the answer though, are they?
He didn’t seem to know them though - if he had engaged with them I think his story would have been different. He seems more of the view a group in the pub recognised him.
Hopefully all will become clear once they catch them.
Edited by DeepEnd on Sunday 18th August 11:34
Edited by DeepEnd on Sunday 18th August 11:36
El stovey said:
Sure but if I write
“I condemn the attacks, you can see why it happened though, you can’t go around expressing political views loudly in pubs.”
I’m saying it’s the guy who was attacked own fault.
It’s not just offering an explanation, it’s my expressing an opinion of the victim, that changes the emphasis from an explanation to blaming them.
“I condemn the rape. The girl wasn’t appropriately dressed, the rapists maybe thought she was asking for it.”
“I condemn the rape. The rapists will probably try to justify it by her clothing. “
Which one sounds like blaming the victim?
I think Owen Jones is a complete tt but most of these posts aren’t really condemning the attack, they’re just people who don’t like him, saying he was asking for it.
Are you part of a group who doesn’t like taking responsibility for your own actions and life by any chance? Easily offended, everything is always someone else’s fault? “I condemn the attacks, you can see why it happened though, you can’t go around expressing political views loudly in pubs.”
I’m saying it’s the guy who was attacked own fault.
It’s not just offering an explanation, it’s my expressing an opinion of the victim, that changes the emphasis from an explanation to blaming them.
“I condemn the rape. The girl wasn’t appropriately dressed, the rapists maybe thought she was asking for it.”
“I condemn the rape. The rapists will probably try to justify it by her clothing. “
Which one sounds like blaming the victim?
I think Owen Jones is a complete t
t but most of these posts aren’t really condemning the attack, they’re just people who don’t like him, saying he was asking for it. If you left your wallet on your unlocked car’s dashboard when parked at the station and someone stole it would you see yourself as being even partly responsible for the theft?
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