Owen Jones

[anonymous-user]

jakesmith said:

Are you part of a group who doesn’t like taking responsibility for your own actions and life by any chance? Easily offended, everything is always someone else’s fault?

If you left your wallet on your unlocked car’s dashboard when parked at the station and someone stole it would you see yourself as being even partly responsible for the theft?

How odd.

No I’m not part of this “group”.

I take complete responsibility for my actions. If I left my wallet somewhere and someone took it, I would think it was my own fault.

A) “I condemn the robbery, he was stupid for leaving it in his car though, you can see why the robber may have taken it. I condemn the robbery though.”

Or

B) “I condemn the robbery, the robber possibly thought they were justified by the wallet being on the dashboard and the door unlocked, I condemn the robbery though.”

Can you see the difference? In A the emphasis is on it being the victims fault. B) doesn’t have your own views, just more of a possible explanation.

Your posts about jones are like A.

jakesmith said:

I condemn the attack completely, it is wrong. I can see why it may have happened because he seems to be quite obnoxious and that can result in scuffles in pubs, also he espouses extreme political views which can upset people. But again I condemn it.

Although you’re saying you condemn the attacks, you’re actually blaming him for them.

[jakesmith]

El stovey said:

Although you’re saying you condemn the attacks, you’re actually blaming him for them.

I’m not blaming him, I’m offering an explanation of why someone may have attacked him.

[Escapegoat]

jakesmith said:

If you left your wallet on your unlocked car’s dashboard when parked at the station and someone stole it would you see yourself as being even partly responsible for the theft?

Wait, what? When a woman is raped walking alone in a city at night with a short skirt, she's partly responsible?

The policeman killed tackling burglars last week was partly responsible?

Andy Ngo partly responsible for being beaten up at the antifa rally?

Farage partly responsible for being milkshaked?

[jakesmith]

Your comment B above is just ludicrous. The robber did it as they thought they could get away with it. Not because they felt justified. Presumably you don’t think it is stupid to leave a wallet on a car dashboard.

[banjowilly]

jakesmith said:

Presumably you don’t think it is stupid to leave a wallet on a car dashboard.

You just can't resist, can you?

[jakesmith]

Escapegoat said:

jakesmith said:

If you left your wallet on your unlocked car’s dashboard when parked at the station and someone stole it would you see yourself as being even partly responsible for the theft?

Wait, what? When a woman is raped walking alone in a city at night with a short skirt, she's partly responsible?

The policeman killed tackling burglars last week was partly responsible?

Andy Ngo partly responsible for being beaten up at the antifa rally?

Farage partly responsible for being milkshaked?

They were all undertaking a course of action that made the consequences they unfairly suffered, more likely than if they had chosen another course of action. It doesn’t mean I condone the attack on the policeman by saying it happened because he was a policeman. If he was a hod carrier he would be alive now. You need to separate your immature and irrational emotion and see the cold logic of my point.

Edited by jakesmith on Sunday 18th August 11:59

[Evanivitch]

Jazzy Jag said:

Evanivitch said:

Except Owen Jones' personality isn't the reason it happened. .

You were there?
Please give us your first hand account of what did happen...

Don't need to be.

I'm still happy to sit back and wait for evidence that it was politically motivated, I'm not jumping on his bandwagon. But the point we were discussing (you might have missed it) is that someone's personality isn't an excuse for violence against them.

[Mothersruin]

Evanivitch said:

Jazzy Jag said:

Evanivitch said:

Except Owen Jones' personality isn't the reason it happened. .

You were there?
Please give us your first hand account of what did happen...

Don't need to be.

I'm still happy to sit back and wait for evidence that it was politically motivated, I'm not jumping on his bandwagon. But the point we were discussing (you might have missed it) is that someone's personality isn't an excuse for violence against them.

Politically motivated as in whoever roughed him up knew exactly who he was and targeted him because of his outspoken hard left politics?

or

Politically motivated because of the hard left politics coming out of his mouth at that time but had no idea who he was?

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

biggbn said:

Serious question Jake, how do you feel about freedom of thought, speech and expression?

Edit, in re your quote a downward spiral of violence, that was never my problem. I was, sadly, quite good at it, and worryingly, I enjoyed it. That's when you really realise you have a problem.


Off to put some flowers in gun barrels now, peace, gbn X

Edited by biggbn on Sunday 18th August 04:02

Morning GdnBn and thanks as always for your upbeat style and interesting line of questioning

Total Freedom of speech and expression are not concepts that exist in UK law neither should they. They are limited already and I support that stance vs say USA where you can racially abuse someone in the street with your freedom of speech.

I don’t believe in the dissemination of the extreme of politics that serves no purpose than to agitate some form of overthrow of the long standing and democratically derived political structure, whether the intentions behind it are honest or not.

I don’t credit the overall population with being particularly critically / forward thinking politically and think they need protection from appealing populism on either side of the political spectrum, whether it be those telling them that immigrants and the Eu are causing their life to be worse, that religions are taking over their town, or that there is a wealthy elite not paying taxes holding them down.

The democracy we have in the UK may not be perfect and it may lead to a general 2 party effect but we are one of the longest existing and most stable countries in the world as a result of this and I’m not supporting of those who rubbish it or try and subvert it. I am not saying this in relation to Owen Jones being pushed outside a pub.

I don’t see the benefit of any of this outweighing the harm, especially when they are often messages propagated by privately owned highly irresponsible businesses, or by scruffy haired politicians who appear all nice, aiming to take power or make money out of the impact of the consequences of these misleading reports.

Not a popular view I’m sure and not an easy one to put into practice of course but my thoughts never the less.

I don’t want the state to be disappearing these people too badly like in 1984 but neither do I want Animal Farm- Maybe in my ideal world, people trying to subvert the political order or undermine the state, like Owen Jones, Corbyn, Farage etc. would be forced to live somewhere like the Welsh Valleys, it’s beautiful countryside with loads of birds but no one would listen to them politically any more especially locally where they’d just be the English Prick.

Edited by jakesmith on Sunday 18th August 08:01

Thanks Jake. I find it fascinating as I am torn between freedom of thought and expression and the fact that we must have an individual responsibility about where and when we exercise such rights as there must be consequence living in the world we do. I do not believe in no platforming anyone and I do not believe the electorate need protected from populism is ALL political parties attempt populist policies near election times and one can argue that they are appealing to the baser instincts within us by doing so.


I guess I am saying although i find it abhorrent that someone should be attacked for their political beliefs, if indeed that was the case, I can understand why some feel said repercussion is a consequence of the dangerous game they are playing.

[anonymous-user]

jakesmith said:

You’ve fallen on your face there, in both of your examples the theoretical position is that an opinion is being offered about the possible motivations of an actor in a situation.

The wording in your second paragraph is ridiculously verbose and people don’t actually talk like that in real life. I’m an articulate person and expressed myself clearly. Sorry you didn’t grasp my point as others have. I even made it easier by repeating my specific condemnation twice.

Situations always have a reason. Pointing it out or postulating on it doesn’t mean you agree with it. It’s not difficult

By you saying you think he’s obnoxious and then you linking that to the attack, the emphasis changes from an explanation to blaming. Just because you write you’re condemning it, you actually aren’t really, you only posted the condemnation to justify then saying he was asking for it because you think he’s obnoxious. You could repeat your condemnation ten times. All your post really says is he’s obnoxious and if he wasn’t like that it wouldn’t have happened.

I’m sure you don’t actually agree with people being attacked but your post is just classic victim blaming.

[Cold]

Struggling to feel any sympathy towards him. I accept that might make me a bad person.
However, until we hear from the alleged "attackers" in this story we're never going to get the truth of the evening's events and I know from his history that facts and Jones don't always have a good relationship.

So right now my Cynicalo'meter is bending its needle.

[anonymous-user]

Eric Mc said:

Some PHers do often state that bad things happen to certain people because that certain person brought it on themselves.

It's a standard argument - whether true or not.

Exactly.

X is wrong BUT . . .

After the “but” usually comes the blaming.

The bit saying it’s wrong is just to make the subsequent blaming sound more acceptable.

If someone I don’t like is attacked and I say it’s wrong but they’re annoying, you can see why it happened, it’s not much of a condemnation. It’s just blaming the person attacked.

If someone they liked was attacked, they wouldn’t be starting the post with condemnation because they wouldn’t be following that by blaming the victim and it would be obvious they weren’t trying to blame the victim.

[jakesmith]

So nothing ever has any explanations or consequences. What an odd way of looking at the world, you fruitcake! Life must be hard for you. Things happening all the time completely beyond your control. And you’re completely powerless to take any control of the direction or outcome of your life!

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

Horrible thing to happen to anyone and on his birthday night too vile.

I suspect it was a homophonic attack over anything else but hopefully they are arrested and charged

Homophonic? They were playing music to him? I trust it was ‘The Red Flag’.

To be honest, given his earlier noted comments , his attackers may claim self defence, if indeed they were extreme right wingers!

Fair enough in my view.........

[anonymous-user]

jakesmith said:

So nothing ever has any explanations or consequences. What an odd way of looking at the world, you fruitcake! Life must be hard for you. Things happening all the time completely beyond your control. And you’re completely powerless to take any control of the direction or outcome of your life!

Why are you writing that nonsense?

Of course things have explanations. The explanation for Jones’s attack might be exactly what you said. The attacker thought he was a tt so attacked him. That’s not the point in question. If you’d just posted that there wouldn’t be any debate.

The point is that by YOU saying YOU think he’s obnoxious and saying you can see why it happened and linking that to the attack you’re blaming him for it rather than just explaining it.

[Baby Shark doo doo doo doo]

psi310398 said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Could this be like that scene in one of the Dirty Harry films where the `victim' (murderer) paid someone to paste him over a bit, so he could then claim `he' was being victimized, by Dirty Harry? Stranger things have happened

Of course not! But, going with the notion, unless he paid a couple of Brownies to do it, he should be asking for his money back!

Racist...oh you meant the young girls in yellow/brown uniforms... misogynistic pig

[Countdown]

amusingduck said:

Countdown said:

amusingduck said:

DeepEnd said:

If you condemn the milkshake, you should condemn this attack.

Is there any actual evidence that this was a politically motivated attack?

What difference would that make?

The evidence, or the political motivation?

Whether or not it was politically motivated.

[Countdown]

Cold said:

Struggling to feel any sympathy towards him. I accept that might make me a bad person.
However, until we hear from the alleged "attackers" in this story we're never going to get the truth of the evening's events and I know from his history that facts and Jones don't always have a good relationship.

So right now my Cynicalo'meter is bending its needle.

Did you feel the same way about Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage being "milkshaked"?

[Escapegoat]

jakesmith said:

Escapegoat said:

jakesmith said:

If you left your wallet on your unlocked car’s dashboard when parked at the station and someone stole it would you see yourself as being even partly responsible for the theft?

Wait, what? When a woman is raped walking alone in a city at night with a short skirt, she's partly responsible?

The policeman killed tackling burglars last week was partly responsible?

Andy Ngo partly responsible for being beaten up at the antifa rally?

Farage partly responsible for being milkshaked?

They were all undertaking a course of action that made the consequences they unfairly suffered, more likely than if they had chosen another course of action. It doesn’t mean I condone the attack on the policeman by saying it happened because he was a policeman. If he was a hod carrier he would be alive now. You need to separate your immature and irrational emotion and see the cold logic of my point.

Edited by jakesmith on Sunday 18th August 11:59

The policeman was partly responsible. Really?

There are some special people on PH, but I think this is a new low.

[Evanivitch]

Mothersruin said:

Evanivitch said:

Jazzy Jag said:

Evanivitch said:

Except Owen Jones' personality isn't the reason it happened. .

You were there?
Please give us your first hand account of what did happen...

Don't need to be.

I'm still happy to sit back and wait for evidence that it was politically motivated, I'm not jumping on his bandwagon. But the point we were discussing (you might have missed it) is that someone's personality isn't an excuse for violence against them.

Politically motivated as in whoever roughed him up knew exactly who he was and targeted him because of his outspoken hard left politics?

or

Politically motivated because of the hard left politics coming out of his mouth at that time but had no idea who he was?

Could be either. Though I'm not convinced he was on his soap box at his own birthday night out, it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.