2nd Referendum please - I don't like how that one panned out
Discussion
I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not but it's the one I'm on right now so here goes 
.
What's the difference (if there is one) between freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to claim benefits/health care etc
When we talk about ongoing freedom of movement does it mean entirely the same thing as now or would/could it be quite different with regard to many of the things that Leave voters may have been concerned about?
.What's the difference (if there is one) between freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to claim benefits/health care etc
When we talk about ongoing freedom of movement does it mean entirely the same thing as now or would/could it be quite different with regard to many of the things that Leave voters may have been concerned about?
Steve H said:
I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not but it's the one I'm on right now so here goes .
What's the difference (if there is one) between freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to claim benefits/health care etc
When we talk about ongoing freedom of movement does it mean entirely the same thing as now or would/could it be quite different with regard to many of the things that Leave voters may have been concerned about?
a lot of the younger ones are very upset that it looks like ability seems to be taken away from them soon..What's the difference (if there is one) between freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to claim benefits/health care etc
When we talk about ongoing freedom of movement does it mean entirely the same thing as now or would/could it be quite different with regard to many of the things that Leave voters may have been concerned about?
They had gotten very used to the idea they could live and work anywhere they wanted in the EU, and I mean live and work, not sponge, mixing with other 18 to 30 year old from other countries, the youth of Europe has gotten very used to this idea.
cirian75 said:
Steve H said:
I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not but it's the one I'm on right now so here goes .
What's the difference (if there is one) between freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to claim benefits/health care etc
When we talk about ongoing freedom of movement does it mean entirely the same thing as now or would/could it be quite different with regard to many of the things that Leave voters may have been concerned about?
a lot of the younger ones are very upset that it looks like ability seems to be taken away from them soon..What's the difference (if there is one) between freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to claim benefits/health care etc
When we talk about ongoing freedom of movement does it mean entirely the same thing as now or would/could it be quite different with regard to many of the things that Leave voters may have been concerned about?
They had gotten very used to the idea they could live and work anywhere they wanted in the EU, and I mean live and work, not sponge, mixing with other 18 to 30 year old from other countries, the youth of Europe has gotten very used to this idea.
Dr Jekyll said:
jonnyb said:
The problem is that "leaving the EU"' is open to huge interpretation. For some leavers it entails leaving the European project in its entirety. No free trade agreement, no free movement of people. Pulling up the drawbridge and sticking 2 fingers up at everyone. For others it means removing ourselves from some EU laws, and the European Parliament, but keeping free trade, and open boarders. And then there's everyone in between.
That's why putting it the question to a binary referendum makes no sence. The country voted to leave the EU, narrowly, so what does that mean?
There's going to be a lot of very pissed off people kicking around after this. No one will be happy.
What about the equally binary referendum on the same question back in 1975? Did that not make sense or is that different because you got the result you wanted?That's why putting it the question to a binary referendum makes no sence. The country voted to leave the EU, narrowly, so what does that mean?
There's going to be a lot of very pissed off people kicking around after this. No one will be happy.
(ETA to add to keep with thread title; 2nd ref is not going to happen. It would mean nothing.)
turbobloke said:
cirian75 said:
Steve H said:
I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not but it's the one I'm on right now so here goes .
What's the difference (if there is one) between freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to claim benefits/health care etc
When we talk about ongoing freedom of movement does it mean entirely the same thing as now or would/could it be quite different with regard to many of the things that Leave voters may have been concerned about?
a lot of the younger ones are very upset that it looks like ability seems to be taken away from them soon..What's the difference (if there is one) between freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to claim benefits/health care etc
When we talk about ongoing freedom of movement does it mean entirely the same thing as now or would/could it be quite different with regard to many of the things that Leave voters may have been concerned about?
They had gotten very used to the idea they could live and work anywhere they wanted in the EU, and I mean live and work, not sponge, mixing with other 18 to 30 year old from other countries, the youth of Europe has gotten very used to this idea.
After that it becomes less certain as it's dependent on the deal struck.
If it's Norway style then no change. If it's Swiss style then no change. If it's WTO style then it's all different.
I can live and work in the UK indefinitely on my NZ passport through birth rights inherited from my parents.
I cannot live or work in mainland Europe.
I can stay for 3 months at a time but have no rights to healthcare, social services or employment through my NZ citizenship though my UK residency gives EHIC rights. If I want to stay longer than 3 months I need to apply for residency and register with the relevant authority with no guarantee of acceptance. That's the difference.
jjlynn27 said:
Not sure how relevant ref of '75 is (I'm asking). Do you think that UK would be better of, worse of or the same today if the '75 ref went different way.
(ETA to add to keep with thread title; 2nd ref is not going to happen. It would mean nothing.)
My guess is worse off at first, then better off once the WTO was formed and tariff barriers started to come down.(ETA to add to keep with thread title; 2nd ref is not going to happen. It would mean nothing.)
Dr Jekyll said:
jonnyb said:
The problem is that "leaving the EU"' is open to huge interpretation. For some leavers it entails leaving the European project in its entirety. No free trade agreement, no free movement of people. Pulling up the drawbridge and sticking 2 fingers up at everyone. For others it means removing ourselves from some EU laws, and the European Parliament, but keeping free trade, and open boarders. And then there's everyone in between.
That's why putting it the question to a binary referendum makes no sence. The country voted to leave the EU, narrowly, so what does that mean?
There's going to be a lot of very pissed off people kicking around after this. No one will be happy.
What about the equally binary referendum on the same question back in 1975? Did that not make sense or is that different because you got the result you wanted?That's why putting it the question to a binary referendum makes no sence. The country voted to leave the EU, narrowly, so what does that mean?
There's going to be a lot of very pissed off people kicking around after this. No one will be happy.
The rules of the club, and how it worked were clearly laid out, people could see it working and what they were getting into.
It was not the same this time round.
Ok, the question was stay or go, but what does go mean? It seems to me it means very different things to different people.
If you had a very defined, laid out plan, then you could have your very binary referendum.
The fact I am very pro European will come as no surprise, also the fact that I am in the small minority on this forum.
However, I see a country, that since Friday, has taken a huge lurch to the right. Where, like it or not, the nationalist genii has been let out of the bottle and is starting to bear it teeth.
I image this was not the picture in most "leavers" minds when they went to the polls on Thursday.
My only hope is that Boris and his chums remember that out of 40m voters, 600,000 would have changed the vote around. So, while leave means leave, it probably shouldn't mean f
k off. Besides, the way things are going, we will be in the euro by 2030!
Dr Jekyll said:
jjlynn27 said:
Not sure how relevant ref of '75 is (I'm asking). Do you think that UK would be better of, worse of or the same today if the '75 ref went different way.
(ETA to add to keep with thread title; 2nd ref is not going to happen. It would mean nothing.)
My guess is worse off at first, then better off once the WTO was formed and tariff barriers started to come down.(ETA to add to keep with thread title; 2nd ref is not going to happen. It would mean nothing.)
jonnyb said:
That question was a lot more simple. In that you could see what you were getting. It was a very simple, do you want to joint this club? Or carry on as we are?
The rules of the club, and how it worked were clearly laid out, people could see it working and what they were getting into.
It was not the same this time round.
Ok, the question was stay or go, but what does go mean? It seems to me it means very different things to different people.
If you had a very defined, laid out plan, then you could have your very binary referendum.
The fact I am very pro European will come as no surprise, also the fact that I am in the small minority on this forum.
However, I see a country, that since Friday, has taken a huge lurch to the right. Where, like it or not, the nationalist genii has been let out of the bottle and is starting to bear it teeth.
I image this was not the picture in most "leavers" minds when they went to the polls on Thursday.
My only hope is that Boris and his chums remember that out of 40m voters, 600,000 would have changed the vote around. So, while leave means leave, it probably shouldn't mean fk off.
Besides, the way things are going, we will be in the euro by 2030!
Brexit has nothing to do with left or right.The rules of the club, and how it worked were clearly laid out, people could see it working and what they were getting into.
It was not the same this time round.
Ok, the question was stay or go, but what does go mean? It seems to me it means very different things to different people.
If you had a very defined, laid out plan, then you could have your very binary referendum.
The fact I am very pro European will come as no surprise, also the fact that I am in the small minority on this forum.
However, I see a country, that since Friday, has taken a huge lurch to the right. Where, like it or not, the nationalist genii has been let out of the bottle and is starting to bear it teeth.
I image this was not the picture in most "leavers" minds when they went to the polls on Thursday.
My only hope is that Boris and his chums remember that out of 40m voters, 600,000 would have changed the vote around. So, while leave means leave, it probably shouldn't mean f
k off. Besides, the way things are going, we will be in the euro by 2030!
jonnyb said:
That question was a lot more simple. In that you could see what you were getting. It was a very simple, do you want to joint this club? Or carry on as we are?
The rules of the club, and how it worked were clearly laid out, people could see it working and what they were getting into.
It was not the same this time round.
Ok, the question was stay or go, but what does go mean? It seems to me it means very different things to different people.
If you had a very defined, laid out plan, then you could have your very binary referendum.
No, the question in 75 was also stay (in the EEC as it was then) or go.The rules of the club, and how it worked were clearly laid out, people could see it working and what they were getting into.
It was not the same this time round.
Ok, the question was stay or go, but what does go mean? It seems to me it means very different things to different people.
If you had a very defined, laid out plan, then you could have your very binary referendum.
amgmcqueen said:
I thought the main issue for leave voters was immigration?
They wanted this to be substantially cut and an Australian points style system be introduced.
If we remain part of the single market this will not happen! So people were duped into voting for a blatant lie?
You may well find that the Leavers voted for 17.5m different reasonsThey wanted this to be substantially cut and an Australian points style system be introduced.
If we remain part of the single market this will not happen! So people were duped into voting for a blatant lie?
For me it fell somewhere between we hadn't voted to join in the first place and a sovereignty issue.
I wanted the person who decides the direction of this country to be directly accountable to us. Then if we don't like the direction we have a chance of changing it by changing the government. In Europe we were being carried along by a grand plan and had little to no control.
voyds9 said:
amgmcqueen said:
I thought the main issue for leave voters was immigration?
They wanted this to be substantially cut and an Australian points style system be introduced.
If we remain part of the single market this will not happen! So people were duped into voting for a blatant lie?
You may well find that the Leavers voted for 17.5m different reasonsThey wanted this to be substantially cut and an Australian points style system be introduced.
If we remain part of the single market this will not happen! So people were duped into voting for a blatant lie?
For me it fell somewhere between we hadn't voted to join in the first place and a sovereignty issue.
I wanted the person who decides the direction of this country to be directly accountable to us. Then if we don't like the direction we have a chance of changing it by changing the government. In Europe we were being carried along by a grand plan and had little to no control.
Lord Ashcroft's polls show this clearly.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-unite...
Just a couple more thoughts in this then I will leave it.
The lurch to the right has left the ultra right wing, xenophobic morons of this country feeling empowered. They feel their anti-immigration, anti-foreigner argument is gaining traction.
Let me expand, why I feel this way.
A couple of years ago I flew a group of school children to Poland for a visit Aushwitz. Kindly they invited the crew along.
And standing there, surrounded by snow, on a bitterly cold afternoon. Looking at gas chambers, standing in the very spot where selection took place. Knowing that where I stood millions went to their deaths. Men, women, children. Their only crime was to be different.
To say it affected me greatly would be an understatement.
I asked myself how could this happen? How could a civilised country like Germany end up at the gates of Aushwitz?
So I went home and read. It starts small, intolerance, prejudice. Then that intolerance finds a voice, the argument that what has happened to you is not your fault it's there's gains traction. It snowballs. In Germany it lead to national socialism and the gas chambers.
Now I am no way saying that is what's going to happen here. However, that intolerance and bigotry finding its voice, that has happened, and is happening again all over Europe. That leaves me worried for my future, and more importantly that of my children.
The lurch to the right has left the ultra right wing, xenophobic morons of this country feeling empowered. They feel their anti-immigration, anti-foreigner argument is gaining traction.
Let me expand, why I feel this way.
A couple of years ago I flew a group of school children to Poland for a visit Aushwitz. Kindly they invited the crew along.
And standing there, surrounded by snow, on a bitterly cold afternoon. Looking at gas chambers, standing in the very spot where selection took place. Knowing that where I stood millions went to their deaths. Men, women, children. Their only crime was to be different.
To say it affected me greatly would be an understatement.
I asked myself how could this happen? How could a civilised country like Germany end up at the gates of Aushwitz?
So I went home and read. It starts small, intolerance, prejudice. Then that intolerance finds a voice, the argument that what has happened to you is not your fault it's there's gains traction. It snowballs. In Germany it lead to national socialism and the gas chambers.
Now I am no way saying that is what's going to happen here. However, that intolerance and bigotry finding its voice, that has happened, and is happening again all over Europe. That leaves me worried for my future, and more importantly that of my children.
Hardly believe what I heard last night watching the BBC Newsnight programme. Hestletine, seemingly very angry, pontificating around the disastrous 'leave' vote. Now Boris and his group of pals can sort this out by negotiating with the EU, or we can have a second referendum!
Even he can't get it round his head, we are out.
Even he can't get it round his head, we are out.
crankedup said:
Hardly believe what I heard last night watching the BBC Newsnight programme. Hestletine, seemingly very angry, pontificating around the disastrous 'leave' vote. Now Boris and his group of pals can sort this out by negotiating with the EU, or we can have a second referendum!
Even he can't get it round his head, we are out.
It still has yet to sink in with some people that this is it we are leaving the EU. Even he can't get it round his head, we are out.
Doesn't sound like Merkel or Juncker are in much of a mood for us changing our minds now
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36656753
Not really surprising. This wasn't just a treaty they could rename but The Project. And it was rejected. No turning back.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36656753
Not really surprising. This wasn't just a treaty they could rename but The Project. And it was rejected. No turning back.
johnxjsc1985 said:
crankedup said:
Hardly believe what I heard last night watching the BBC Newsnight programme. Hestletine, seemingly very angry, pontificating around the disastrous 'leave' vote. Now Boris and his group of pals can sort this out by negotiating with the EU, or we can have a second referendum!
Even he can't get it round his head, we are out.
It still has yet to sink in with some people that this is it we are leaving the EU. Even he can't get it round his head, we are out.
Ruling party in Poland are calling for massive reforms in Europe, followed by a 2nd UK referendum. Of course, the Polish reforms would kill the superstate idea and require that EU law only counts for pan-EU matters, and that each country maintains sovereignty.
I would vote for that, but as it won't happen, there's no need!
I would vote for that, but as it won't happen, there's no need!
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