Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result

[Fittster]

Hmm, triggering article 50 will take years.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-ba...

And as that has to happen before we can even start negotiations it will be a long, long time before anything changes.

[mattmurdock]

don4l said:

I read the second sentence of that article and realised that it was written by a deluded idiot.

He seems to think that the Court of Justice of the EU has a role in the current situation.

Unbelievable!

Technically, the CJE still has some authority. It wouldn't dare try to exercise it at this point.

It will be fascinating to see how the British courts behave over the coming months. Judges interpret the technicalities of the law, and so they will continue to act subservient to Europe. However, Europe will not feel strong enough to exercise the power that she still has.

I'd suggest you read it again slowly Don, but given how patronising that sounds when you do it I will try and refrain this time .

The point he is making is not whether we should have a second referendum prior to triggering Article 50. The point he is making is a hypothetical based around the following:

1. We triggered Article 50
2. We did the negotiating
3. The government felt the result of the negotiation should be put to the public as a referendum in which the question is 'should we leave the EU on these terms, or should we remain in the EU'
4. The result of that referendum is a mandate to stay in the EU

He is asking if it would even be legally possible to withdraw from the Article 50 mechanism once it has begun, and his answer is no, unless the ECJ chose to 'flex' the terms of the Lisbon treaty.

To be honest, the referendum thing is a bit of a sideshow, given the government have sovereignty and so could choose to back out themselves if they wished. Seems a bit of a pointless blog in my opinion, as he is just restating the obvious - that once Article 50 is triggered, there is no way to withdraw from that without the cooperation of the EU and the ECJ.

[Efbe]

sidicks said:

We already had a poor deal within the EU, following Brexit we should be able to negotiate a deal which will be mutually advantageous to both sides.

agreed, and agreed.

In or out of the EU makes little difference to me. We need access to the common market, or at least agreements on all of our core exports/imports. Because of this, the EU legislation will have to remain in place, and we will probably pay the same either way.
Freedom of movement is the really difficult one. I just don't see how we can limit that the way things are now.

[Mario149]

Fittster said:

Hmm, triggering article 50 will take years.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-ba...

And as that has to happen before we can even start negotiations it will be a long, long time before anything changes.

Blimey, that's not light reading The more I read about the nitty gritty of article 50 and withdrawing, the more I come to the conclusion that leaving the EU is almost impossible without massive damage to us given the complexity and timescales involved. As a Remainer, I'm tentatively hoping that "realpolitik" prevails and we stay as a result. If I was a Leaver, I imagine it would be a horrible prospect to be on the cusp of Leaving but not sensibly be able to.

My ideal outcome to all of this would be if we stayed, but managed to get some sort of genuine, substantial concession out of the EU once they'd seen how close we were to pulling the trigger. Hopefully that would help allay some Leaver's concerns and indeed switch them over to the Remain camp. It's clear that there are massive divisions over this, but I hold out hope that there's a chance we can Remain and that say 70% of the population can be made happy, rather than just slightly more or slightly less than half.

[tarnished]

Mario149 said:

My ideal outcome to all of this would be if we stayed, but managed to get some sort of genuine, substantial concession out of the EU once they'd seen how close we were to pulling the trigger.

Pull the other one!

[wc98]

Mario149 said:

Blimey, that's not light reading The more I read about the nitty gritty of article 50 and withdrawing, the more I come to the conclusion that leaving the EU is almost impossible without massive damage to us given the complexity and timescales involved. As a Remainer, I'm tentatively hoping that "realpolitik" prevails and we stay as a result. If I was a Leaver, I imagine it would be a horrible prospect to be on the cusp of Leaving but not sensibly be able to.

My ideal outcome to all of this would be if we stayed, but managed to get some sort of genuine, substantial concession out of the EU once they'd seen how close we were to pulling the trigger. Hopefully that would help allay some Leaver's concerns and indeed switch them over to the Remain camp. It's clear that there are massive divisions over this, but I hold out hope that there's a chance we can Remain and that say 70% of the population can be made happy, rather than just slightly more or slightly less than half.

why in gods name would you want to remain embroiled in this ? http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic... link kindly provided by fblm.

[jonnyb]

The population of the U.K. Is 65m. Only 17.5M voted leave. That leaves a huge proportion of the population that had no vote, didn't vote, or voted to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...

Another opinion on the legality of the whole thing

[sidicks]

jonnyb said:

The population of the U.K. Is 65m. Only 17.5M voted leave. That leaves a huge proportion of the population that had no vote, didn't vote, or voted to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...

Another opinion on the legality of the whole thing

Another nonsense comment.

We don't let children vote for obvious reasons. The reminder chose not to vote for whatever reason.

More whinging and bleating from the losers.

[Fittster]

Mario149 said:

Fittster said:

Hmm, triggering article 50 will take years.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-ba...

And as that has to happen before we can even start negotiations it will be a long, long time before anything changes.

Blimey, that's not light reading The more I read about the nitty gritty of article 50 and withdrawing, the more I come to the conclusion that leaving the EU is almost impossible without massive damage to us given the complexity and timescales involved. As a Remainer, I'm tentatively hoping that "realpolitik" prevails and we stay as a result. If I was a Leaver, I imagine it would be a horrible prospect to be on the cusp of Leaving but not sensibly be able to.

My ideal outcome to all of this would be if we stayed, but managed to get some sort of genuine, substantial concession out of the EU once they'd seen how close we were to pulling the trigger. Hopefully that would help allay some Leaver's concerns and indeed switch them over to the Remain camp. It's clear that there are massive divisions over this, but I hold out hope that there's a chance we can Remain and that say 70% of the population can be made happy, rather than just slightly more or slightly less than half.

As this blog points out (with pictures) the process is so complicated and risky and sensible government may never actually try it:

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/2016/06/...

bureaucracy and politics to the rescue?

[jonnyb]

wc98 said:

Mario149 said:

Blimey, that's not light reading The more I read about the nitty gritty of article 50 and withdrawing, the more I come to the conclusion that leaving the EU is almost impossible without massive damage to us given the complexity and timescales involved. As a Remainer, I'm tentatively hoping that "realpolitik" prevails and we stay as a result. If I was a Leaver, I imagine it would be a horrible prospect to be on the cusp of Leaving but not sensibly be able to.

My ideal outcome to all of this would be if we stayed, but managed to get some sort of genuine, substantial concession out of the EU once they'd seen how close we were to pulling the trigger. Hopefully that would help allay some Leaver's concerns and indeed switch them over to the Remain camp. It's clear that there are massive divisions over this, but I hold out hope that there's a chance we can Remain and that say 70% of the population can be made happy, rather than just slightly more or slightly less than half.

why in gods name would you want to remain embroiled in this ? http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic... link kindly provided by fblm.

I think we have moved on in the last five years

[sidicks]

jonnyb said:

I think we have moved on in the last five years

Indeed - the EU has got more corrupt and has emphasised that they don't intend to change anything.

And we've voted out!

[Camoradi]

jonnyb said:

The population of the U.K. Is 65m. Only 17.5M voted leave. That leaves a huge proportion of the population that had no vote, didn't vote, or voted to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...

Another opinion on the legality of the whole thing

The losing side will always question the result in these things, seizing on any opinion which puts the result in doubt.

[jonnyb]

sidicks said:

jonnyb said:

The population of the U.K. Is 65m. Only 17.5M voted leave. That leaves a huge proportion of the population that had no vote, didn't vote, or voted to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...

Another opinion on the legality of the whole thing

Another nonsense comment.

We don't let children vote for obvious reasons. The reminder chose not to vote for whatever reason.

More whinging and bleating from the losers.

Only 15M are aged under 18. So that still leaves about 10M with no vote. Your leave vote was only about 36% of the population. Hardly a resounding result.

It it appears the whole thing was a complete waste of time anyway, as the lawyers seen to think that triggering article 50 would be illegal.

Good luck with wanting to get out, it looks like the only way you will achieve it is to move out.

[jonnyb]

sidicks said:

jonnyb said:

I think we have moved on in the last five years

Indeed - the EU has got more corrupt and has emphasised that they don't intend to change anything.

And we've voted out!

You have, but your not going anywhere.

[sidicks]

jonnyb said:

Only 15M are aged under 18. So that still leaves about 10M with no vote. Your leave vote was only about 36% of the population. Hardly a resounding result.

No, still wrong. People were either ineligible or chose not to vote.

The key word is high listed for you - democratic choice is clearly not what you believe in...

jonnyb said:

It it appears the whole thing was a complete waste of time anyway, as the lawyers seen to think that triggering article 50 would be illegal.

We shall see.

jonnyb said:

Good luck with wanting to get out, it looks like the only way you will achieve it is to move out.

You're the one that wants closer integration with the EU and to adopt the Euro, seemingly oblivious to the obvious flaws and the negative impact it's had on tens of millions of people - are you on their payroll by any chance?

Edited by sidicks on Thursday 30th June 12:41

[Timmy40]

jonnyb said:

sidicks said:

jonnyb said:

The population of the U.K. Is 65m. Only 17.5M voted leave. That leaves a huge proportion of the population that had no vote, didn't vote, or voted to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...

Another opinion on the legality of the whole thing

Another nonsense comment.

We don't let children vote for obvious reasons. The reminder chose not to vote for whatever reason.

More whinging and bleating from the losers.

Only 15M are aged under 18. So that still leaves about 10M with no vote. Your leave vote was only about 36% of the population. Hardly a resounding result.

It it appears the whole thing was a complete waste of time anyway, as the lawyers seen to think that triggering article 50 would be illegal.

Good luck with wanting to get out, it looks like the only way you will achieve it is to move out.

Approx 47m were registered to vote.

@17m voted leave,

@16m voted stay,

and for @14m they simply couldn't be bothered, or didn't care enough to vote.

In that 14m were @3m of the age 18-24 bracket. Many of whom are probably now be-moaning the result.

If those 18-24y'o had voted chances are it would be been a slim victory for remain. But seeing as they couldn't be bothered to vote I can hardly see what basis they have for now complaining about it?

[jonnyb]

sidicks said:

jonnyb said:

Only 15M are aged under 18. So that still leaves about 10M with no vote. Your leave vote was only about 36% of the population. Hardly a resounding result.

No, still wrong. People were either ineligible or chose not to vote.

The key word is high listed for you - democratic choice is clear;y not what you believe in...

jonnyb said:

It it appears the whole thing was a complete waste of time anyway, as the lawyers seen to think that triggering article 50 would be illegal.

We shall see.

jonnyb said:

Good luck with wanting to get out, it looks like the only way you will achieve it is to move out.

Your the one that wants closer integration with the EU and to adopt the Euro - are you on their payroll?

A large proportion of the population were ineligible to vote, that just means we have disenfranchised a large amount of people. Not really democracy is it? One man, one vote and all that.

I wish I was on the EU payroll, I would be a lot richer than I am now.

[jonnyb]

Timmy40 said:

jonnyb said:

sidicks said:

jonnyb said:

The population of the U.K. Is 65m. Only 17.5M voted leave. That leaves a huge proportion of the population that had no vote, didn't vote, or voted to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...

Another opinion on the legality of the whole thing

Another nonsense comment.

We don't let children vote for obvious reasons. The reminder chose not to vote for whatever reason.

More whinging and bleating from the losers.

Only 15M are aged under 18. So that still leaves about 10M with no vote. Your leave vote was only about 36% of the population. Hardly a resounding result.

It it appears the whole thing was a complete waste of time anyway, as the lawyers seen to think that triggering article 50 would be illegal.

Good luck with wanting to get out, it looks like the only way you will achieve it is to move out.

Approx 47m were registered to vote.

@17m voted leave,

@16m voted stay,

and for @14m they simply couldn't be bothered, or didn't care enough to vote.

In that 14m were @3m of the age 18-24 bracket. Many of whom are probably now be-moaning the result.

If those 18-24y'o had voted chances are it would be been a slim victory for remain. But seeing as they couldn't be bothered to vote I can hardly see what basis they have for now complaining about it?

So you want to make a huge constitutional change based on roughly a 3rd of the population allowed to vote in this referendum.

Like I said, hardly a resounding out vote was is?

[Camoradi]

jonnyb said:

It it appears the whole thing was a complete waste of time anyway, as the lawyers seen to think that triggering article 50 would be illegal.

The article you are quoting does not say that. It says that the decision to trigger Article 50 is governed by National, not EU law, and therefore could be subject to judicial review in a UK court. The piece suggests that the referendum itself was held to further the interest of the Conservative party, (nothing more than opinion of the writer) and not in the interest of the nation. The court would have to decide on that in order to come to a conclusion.

With respect, I believe you are misrepresenting what the article says, notwithstanding the source.

[Mario149]

wc98 said:

why in gods name would you want to remain embroiled in this ? http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic... link kindly provided by fblm.

Several reasons, but among them: we're not actually in the Eurozone, and if it is a real risk I'd rather be in the EU trying to help stop it happening, and finally if it does go t*ts up us sitting there on our Norway+/- option isn't going to save us.

That article is also 5 years old.