Will JC Juncker get the chop?

[SpeckledJim]

Greg66 said:

Jockman said:

He said we were not a nation of quitters.

And the nation said "fk you" back to him.

Jockman said:

Then quit.

And he said "fk you" back to the nation (all right, to Boris really).

There is a certain symmetry to those events.

In fairness, if Cameron had made it known that a leave vote would mean Cameron quitting, it would have clouded the situation more than a little!

[Puggit]

Sparkyhd said:

I agree with the FIFA / Blatter analogy.

Can someone clarify why it's stated that these EU officials are unelected? From what I've read (Wikipedia) there are elections. Juncker wasn't just planted there.

Juncker is arguably democratically elected. The largest group in the EU parliament gets to nominate their candidate, and then the Council (country leaders) are supposed to rubber stamp it. Cameron was very much against Juncker, for obvious reasons. He is a europhile, he had problems as Luxembourg's president that make awful reading - and he's a drunk.

Juncker then gets given a commissioner from each country, which he decides to give a portfolio to. These are the people who make the laws, which the parliament then 'debates' and approves.

[Sparkyhd]

ta

[Lucas Ayde]

Puggit said:

He is a europhile, he had problems as Luxembourg's president that make awful reading - and he's a drunk.

So not all bad then - good old Jean-Claude Drunker.

Puggit said:

Juncker then gets given a commissioner from each country, which he decides to give a portfolio to. These are the people who make the laws, which the parliament then 'debates' and approves.

Sounds like a great way to set our laws - I can't believe people might have a problem with that! Obviously those that do must be all xenophobic, regressive racists.

[stitched]

61GT said:

Here you go, the man himself in action: -

https://youtu.be/XPgiI46FCDU

He's pissed as a newt, really do not wish to be led by this dick.

[mattmurdock]

Lucas Ayde said:

Sounds like a great way to set our laws - I can't believe people might have a problem with that! Obviously those that do must be all xenophobic, regressive racists.

As compared to MPs proposing laws (then drafted by civil servants) and then MPs voting on them?

Instead they have national leaders, MEPs or Commissioners proposing laws (then drafted by civil servants) and then MEPs and the national leaders get to input into and to vote on them?

[Rovinghawk]

Puggit said:

Juncker is arguably democratically elected.

Democratic- from 'demos', meaning the people. Presumably all of the people. I never voted for him, neither did you, neither did any of the electorate.

With this in mind, please show your argument for his democratic election.

[Lucas Ayde]

mattmurdock said:

As compared to MPs proposing laws (then drafted by civil servants) and then MPs voting on them?

Instead they have national leaders, MEPs or Commissioners proposing laws (then drafted by civil servants) and then MEPs and the national leaders get to input into and to vote on them?

Yes, because the UK system is composed of people that UK voters have put in power and can hold accountable (not that they do so vigorously enough IMO, but that's another debate).

Being part of a huge bloc of about half a billion people (and growing all the time) in loads of different countries whose interests may or may not be somewhat different to yours isn't a great way to set everyday laws which directly affect you.

It's a pretty simple concept - but obviously I'm just covering up the fact that I'm a racist bigot.

[Puggit]

Rovinghawk said:

Puggit said:

Juncker is arguably democratically elected.

Democratic- from 'demos', meaning the people. Presumably all of the people. I never voted for him, neither did you, neither did any of the electorate.

With this in mind, please show your argument for his democratic election.

I said arguably

We, the people of Europe, voted for the EU parliament. It is the EU parliament that proposed Juncker. It is not dissimilar to the way the Tories select their leader.

[mattmurdock]

Rovinghawk said:

Democratic- from 'demos', meaning the people. Presumably all of the people. I never voted for him, neither did you, neither did any of the electorate.

With this in mind, please show your argument for his democratic election.

I voted Conservative, but I didn't vote for Cameron (and I won't have voted for Boris/Gove/May/Crabb/A N Other).

The same principle applies by extension. I voted Conservative, my MP voted for Cameron, my MEP voted for Juncker.

Yes, my MP may not have actually voted for Cameron (and in some areas, despite voting Conservative my MP may not be a Conservative). Yes, my MEP may not have voted for Juncker. Yes, Cameron tried to block his appointment.

But to claim there was no 'demos' involved in the chain of events is silly.

[mattmurdock]

Lucas Ayde said:

Yes, because the UK system is composed of people that UK voters have put in power and can hold accountable (not that they do so vigorously enough IMO, but that's another debate).

Being part of a huge bloc of about half a billion people (and growing all the time) in loads of different countries whose interests may or may not be somewhat different to yours isn't a great way to set everyday laws which directly affect you.

It's a pretty simple concept - but obviously I'm just covering up the fact that I'm a racist bigot.

Right, so your problem is the number of people involved, and that they live in different places?

So clearly you are unhappy that Cornish people can vote on stuff which may only affect London? Or Welsh voting on stuff that only really has an impact on Yorkshire?

The EU system is composed of people that EU voters have put in power and can hold accountable.

[wc98]

mattmurdock said:

I voted Conservative, but I didn't vote for Cameron (and I won't have voted for Boris/Gove/May/Crabb/A N Other).

The same principle applies by extension. I voted Conservative, my MP voted for Cameron, my MEP voted for Juncker.

Yes, my MP may not have actually voted for Cameron (and in some areas, despite voting Conservative my MP may not be a Conservative). Yes, my MEP may not have voted for Juncker. Yes, Cameron tried to block his appointment.

But to claim there was no 'demos' involved in the chain of events is silly.

what department in brussels did you say you worked in ?

[John145]

mattmurdock said:

I voted Conservative, but I didn't vote for Cameron (and I won't have voted for Boris/Gove/May/Crabb/A N Other).

The same principle applies by extension. I voted Conservative, my MP voted for Cameron, my MEP voted for Juncker.

Yes, my MP may not have actually voted for Cameron (and in some areas, despite voting Conservative my MP may not be a Conservative). Yes, my MEP may not have voted for Juncker. Yes, Cameron tried to block his appointment.

But to claim there was no 'demos' involved in the chain of events is silly.

What powers does the PM have that any other MP does not have?

[mattmurdock]

wc98 said:

what department in brussels did you say you worked in ?

I didn't because I don't - what department in Brussels do you work in to have such an 'insider' knowledge of how it really happens ?

I'm just fed up of people using emotional arguments instead of actually using facts, so I am trying to inject some balance by pointing out when people seem to be basing important decisions on flimsy premises.

[mattmurdock]

John145 said:

What powers does the PM have that any other MP does not have?

Is that a serious question? I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand how someone can be so vocal about the EU and yet not seem to understand how their own government works.

[Rovinghawk]

mattmurdock said:

I didn't because I don't - what department in Brussels do you work in to have such an 'insider' knowledge of how it really happens ?

I'm just fed up of people using emotional arguments instead of actually using facts, so I am trying to inject some balance by pointing out when people seem to be basing important decisions on flimsy premises.

In the case of Cameron his constituents voted for him.

In the case of Junckers none of the elctorate even got the opportunity to cast a vote. If you or anyone else can argue that this is democratic then please do so.

[steveT350C]

Puggit said:

Rovinghawk said:

Puggit said:

Juncker is arguably democratically elected.

Democratic- from 'demos', meaning the people. Presumably all of the people. I never voted for him, neither did you, neither did any of the electorate.

With this in mind, please show your argument for his democratic election.

I said arguably

We, the people of Europe, voted for the EU parliament. It is the EU parliament that proposed Juncker. It is not dissimilar to the way the Tories select their leader.

The EU Council proposed Junker, but who was the alternative?

[jjlynn27]

wc98 said:

what department in brussels did you say you worked in ?

Why do you post things like that? Everyone was having normal discussion, really no need for snide comments. Plenty of other threads for bickering ans scoring imaginary 'win/lose' points.

[Rovinghawk]

Puggit said:

I said arguably

So please demonstrate the argument.

Puggit said:

It is not dissimilar to the way the Tories select their leader.

The Tory leader was elected by the party having been elected by the constituents- nobody voted for Juncker in any election I ever got to hear about.
I therefore see dissimilarities.

[Lucas Ayde]

mattmurdock said:

Right, so your problem is the number of people involved, and that they live in different places?

Yes, that's one of the reasons I have problems with EU membership as it stands. Aside from the fact that different nations will almost certainly have different priorities, as you start bringing more and more people into a block with the huge and unwieldy power structures that implies, the individual person just gets less and less say in things and there is very little transparency or accountability.

mattmurdock said:

So clearly you are unhappy that Cornish people can vote on stuff which may only affect London? Or Welsh voting on stuff that only really has an impact on Yorkshire?

I would certainly prefer a greater decentralisation of power in the UK also but at least people across it have a long history of shared culture and can generally relate to each other a lot better than people in disparate nations will. Plus being geographically close and being strongly linked historically means that often interests do align for everyone.

mattmurdock said:

The EU system is composed of people that EU voters have put in power and can hold accountable.

Good for them - but I'm not French, nor German, nor Polish etc. I don't want to be part of a supersize bloc of far-away people determining my laws and making policy that affects my life. If the people of other states do, good luck to them but I suspect that unless the anti-democratic 'remain' establishment can thwart Brexit, the UK won't be the last country to be decoupling from the budding European super-state.