How do we think EU negotiations will go?

[Oilchange]

Project fear is alive and well!
I’m optimistic and am sure your points will be disproved at some point down the line...

ORD said:

It's genuinely shocking that anyone competent enough to use a computer thinks the UK is going to secure EU-like trade deals with ROW. Which of the major trading nations do you expect to want to sign up to no customs duty and/or regulatory equivalence rules with the UK (and for the UK to want to agree to that):

The USA? Literally zero chance
China? Literally zero chance
Any developing nation? Roughly zero chance

You were seriously misled if you thought any of the 'trade more with ROW' stuff was anything but gibberish aimed at the gullible and ill-informed.

Edited by Oilchange on Sunday 19th November 11:27

[Oilchange]

Project fear is alive and well!
I’m optimistic and am sure your points will be disproved at some point down the line...

ORD said:

It's genuinely shocking that anyone competent enough to use a computer thinks the UK is going to secure EU-like trade deals with ROW. Which of the major trading nations do you expect to want to sign up to no customs duty and/or regulatory equivalence rules with the UK (and for the UK to want to agree to that):

The USA? Literally zero chance
China? Literally zero chance
Any developing nation? Roughly zero chance

You were seriously misled if you thought any of the 'trade more with ROW' stuff was anything but gibberish aimed at the gullible and ill-informed.

Edited by Oilchange on Sunday 19th November 12:28

[powerstroke]

ORD said:

It's genuinely shocking that anyone competent enough to use a computer thinks the UK is going to secure EU-like trade deals with ROW. Which of the major trading nations do you expect to want to sign up to no customs duty and/or regulatory equivalence rules with the UK (and for the UK to want to agree to that):

The USA? Literally zero chance
China? Literally zero chance
Any developing nation? Roughly zero chance

You were seriously misled if you thought any of the 'trade more with ROW' stuff was anything but gibberish aimed at the gullible and ill-informed.

Great post from the parallel universe of misery , rinse and repeat ...

[Dr Jekyll]

ORD said:

Record growth? Are you serious?!

As for unemployment, that's damn lies and statistics. Loads of 'self-employed' people and workers on zero hours contracts. Not many actual new jobs.

Every credible economist thinks hard Brexit will hurt a fair bit.

Nothing wrong with self employment.

Anyway, before the 2007 crash around 65% of people in work were on full time PAYE as opposed to part time/zero hours/self employed etc, now the figure is 63%.

[Eddie Strohacker]

Dr Jekyll said:

Nothing wrong with self employment.

.

Produces low tax receipts. Carry on.

[powerstroke]

///ajd said:

powerstroke said:

I agree , Joe and Joana average don't understand or care about sovereignty and the higher issues around the EU , they do however see the damage of uncontrolled immigration to their way of life , wages and their kids futures ,

This reinforces how important it is to have solid facts on the impact of immigration.

Is that facts or pro immigration propaganda to suit the wealthy ??

[Dr Jekyll]

ORD said:

It's genuinely shocking that anyone competent enough to use a computer thinks the UK is going to secure EU-like trade deals with ROW. Which of the major trading nations do you expect to want to sign up to no customs duty and/or regulatory equivalence rules with the UK (and for the UK to want to agree to that):

The USA? Literally zero chance
China? Literally zero chance
Any developing nation? Roughly zero chance

You were seriously misled if you thought any of the 'trade more with ROW' stuff was anything but gibberish aimed at the gullible and ill-informed.

Since the EU doesn't have trade deals with the USA or China I don't know what an EU-like trade deal would be. Suffice to say that (for example) both Switzerland and South Korea are far better at securing trade deals than the EU. Not least because the EU isn't really interested in ROW trade more in protecting EU producers at the expense of consumers.

[voyds9]

vonuber said:

voyds9 said:

The EU is not immutable it does change over time and we (UK) had very little control of the direction it could/would take.

Surely the question should be why (if it is indeed true).
We were nominally the second biggest country economically, so why were we not as powerful as Germany supposedly is?

Uk population 65million number MEP's 73 so 1 MEP represents 899,000 people
Malta population 416000 number MEP's 6, so 1 MEP represents 69,000 people

So Malta has 13x the influence per member of public that the UK has.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Dr Jekyll said:

Since the EU doesn't have trade deals with the USA or China I don't know what an EU-like trade deal would be. Suffice to say that (for example) both Switzerland and South Korea are far better at securing trade deals than the EU. Not least because the EU isn't really interested in ROW trade more in protecting EU producers at the expense of consumers.

The EU and South Korea have an FTA.

[ORD]

Dr Jekyll said:

Since the EU doesn't have trade deals with the USA or China I don't know what an EU-like trade deal would be. Suffice to say that (for example) both Switzerland and South Korea are far better at securing trade deals than the EU. Not least because the EU isn't really interested in ROW trade more in protecting EU producers at the expense of consumers.

Deliberately obtuse?

There is zero prospect of the UK and the US or China entering into a trade deal anything like as good as that between the UK and the EU. You know, the one we're losing out on.

[Dr Jekyll]

ORD said:

Deliberately obtuse?

There is zero prospect of the UK and the US or China entering into a trade deal anything like as good as that between the UK and the EU. You know, the one we're losing out on.

Except we don't have a trade deal with the EU, we have a customs union, that's the point.

[jjlynn27]

Dr Jekyll said:

ORD said:

Deliberately obtuse?

There is zero prospect of the UK and the US or China entering into a trade deal anything like as good as that between the UK and the EU. You know, the one we're losing out on.

Except we don't have a trade deal with the EU, we have a customs union, that's the point.

At some point, even you'll realize that you are making his point for him.

[jjlynn27]

Tuna said:

Sorry, whilst it is fun winding you up,

Which part do you think was winding me up, you being a liar or something else?

Tuna said:

I really have got better things to do ...

Like going over pages and counting which 'side' came up with more insults?



That was the most pathetic thing that I've ever read on PH. Even the dumbest of kippers, and there are quite a few of them, are not that sad.


Thanks for playing.

[Oilchange]

In fairness, there are a few dumb remainers too ...

[anonymous-user]

PurpleMoonlight said:

jsf said:

That's pretty much the size of it, that's not the same as saying they are OK with a hard border.

It rather is you know, and this is what gives the game away:

"(2) Continuation of the Common Travel Area arrangements, in conformity with European
Union law, should be recognised. The United Kingdom has expressed its readiness to
ensure that the Common Travel Area can continue to operate without compromising
Ireland's ability to honour its obligations as a European Union Member State, including
in relation to free movement for European Economic Area nationals to and from Ireland."

How do you think the following means they are OK with a hard border?

EU said:

Issues unique to Ireland include the protection of the gains of the peace process and of the Good Friday Agreement ('Belfast Agreement')
in all its parts, the maintenance of existing bilateral agreements and arrangements between the United Kingdom and Ireland including the Common Travel Area, and specific issues arising from Ireland’s unique geographic situation, including the aim of avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.


Ensuring the avoidance of a hard border on the island of Ireland is central to protecting the gains of the Peace Process underpinned by the Good Friday Agreement. In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required to avoid a hard border, including any physical border infrastructure. This must be achieved in a way which ensures that Ireland's place within the Internal Market and Customs Union is unaffected.

Is that all weasel words and they have no intention of being flexible in order to avoid a hard border? That's what you appear to be suggesting.

[anonymous-user]

Eddie Strohacker said:

jsf said:

The EU, UK and Eire don't agree with you. They are treating this issue as different to the rest of the block. You know this, so why are you suggesting this isn't the case?

Unless you are a child, you know this is everyone's problem to find a solution to and without the acceptance of that the problem wont be solved.

As I've said numerous times now, all that is required is the political will and it will be sorted out in short order, but they wont do that yet because they are trying to use Ireland as a bargaining chip to the wider issue of money.

At least be honest about it Eddie, if you continue to suggest this isn't a one off situation that all parties have agreed to work on as a separate issue to the main negotiation, then you will have to be put in my ignore box whenever this issue comes up, along with everyone else who continues to peddle the idea that this isn't being treated as a stand alone problem.

Remarkable. First of all it's bloc, not block. Secondly it's childish to call someone a child. Thirdly, you replace practical difficulty with the phrase 'political will' in a transparently facile discounting of the consequences of leave voters responsibilities & with laughable self importance threaten me with an ignore box whatever that is. I love a self appointed Brexit arbiter of what does & doesn't get read.

Once we've put that pile of egotistical nonsense outside where it belongs, you make one substantive point which is the EU making proper regard to the political sensitivities of Northern Ireland, and so they should but I would bet my mortgage if you were to look back over these threads prior to the vote, you would find barely a single reference to Northern Ireland, so my original point stands, you voted for this mess, you own it.

And yet with all those words you failed to address the point.

Maybe we didn't discuss NI prior to the vote because Remain failed to raise the issue with enough vigour? Using your kind of rhetoric, you need to own that. That kind of thing can happen when you spend your energy on bullst rather than real issues.

[Eddie Strohacker]

jsf said:

And yet with all those words you failed to address the point.

Maybe we didn't discuss NI prior to the vote because Remain failed to raise the issue with enough vigour? Using your kind of rhetoric, you need to own that. That kind of thing can happen when you spend your energy on bullst rather than real issues.

For someone bandying around ignore lists & child smears your own rhetoric is running freely it appears. Once again in spite of or more likely because of your hobby of reading every EU publication going, you need reminding the entire intractable border issue is a direct result of Brexit. You can't turn that around on any logical level at those of us who wanted to stay in the union. It's another perverse twist of thinking on a level with your last effort to blame anyone except your leave buddies. I shouldn't be surprised by now, every single bump in the road if you believe what you read here is nothing but remoaers, intransigent EU bureaucrats or lobbying businesses. you lot are so unwilling to own your own actions it's almost as if you realise the magnitude of what you've done.

jsf said:

As I've said numerous times now, all that is required is the political will and it will be sorted out in short order, but they wont do that yet because they are trying to use Ireland as a bargaining chip to the wider issue of money.

Classic.

[///ajd]

jsf said:

And yet with all those words you failed to address the point.

Maybe we didn't discuss NI prior to the vote because Remain failed to raise the issue with enough vigour? Using your kind of rhetoric, you need to own that. That kind of thing can happen when you spend your energy on bullst rather than real issues.

So we have an unplanned NI border snag and its remains fault for not pointing out the danger. But hang on, it was raised pre-referendum:

Remain - Osbourne - "hey chaps this is a bit of a big issue"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

Brexiteer - Boris Johnson told the BBC that Brexit would leave arrangements on the Irish border "absolutely unchanged".

It is "absolutely clear" that brexiteers need to own it jsf - how are your solutions coming on, how will they be left "absolutely unchanged"? Are we staying in the CU after all? Risible deceit on full display by Boris here.

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

So we have an unplanned NI border snag and its remains fault for not pointing out the danger. But hang on, it was raised pre-referendum:

Remain - Osbourne - "hey chaps this is a bit of a big issue"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

Brexiteer - Boris Johnson told the BBC that Brexit would leave arrangements on the Irish border "absolutely unchanged".

It is "absolutely clear" that brexiteers need to own it jsf - how are your solutions coming on, how will they be left "absolutely unchanged"? Are we staying in the CU after all? Risible deceit on full display by Boris here.

We wont know the fudge until we know the fudge. You have to be living in a box to not expect there will be a fudge.

How else do you read the EU guidelines they published? How else do you read the UK government position?

You could argue they are lying and have no intention to be "flexible" of course. My expectation is they aren't that stupid.

[Eddie Strohacker]

jsf said:

And yet with all those words you failed to address the point.

Maybe we didn't discuss NI prior to the vote because Remain failed to raise the issue with enough vigour? Using your kind of rhetoric, you need to own that. That kind of thing can happen when you spend your energy on bullst rather than real issues.

I'm coming back to this as it's floored me. It's saying if you'd warned us what a mess this would be, we wouldn't have been so reckless at the ballot box, therefore it's your fault!

Unbelievably craven argument.