How do we think EU negotiations will go?

[anonymous-user]

Eddie Strohacker said:

jsf said:

And yet with all those words you failed to address the point.

Maybe we didn't discuss NI prior to the vote because Remain failed to raise the issue with enough vigour? Using your kind of rhetoric, you need to own that. That kind of thing can happen when you spend your energy on bullst rather than real issues.

I'm coming back to this as it's floored me. It's saying if you'd warned us what a mess this would be, we wouldn't have been so reckless at the ballot box, therefore it's your fault!

Unbelievably craven argument.

Its a response to your position put forth that people didn't understand the implications of the vote.

If that is your position, then it follows that your side of the argument didn't do a good job of explaining the potential downsides. You can't expect the leave side to do that for you, that side has already assessed the issue as not a game changer for their position.

Using your own approach, that means the Remain campaign and those on that side of the debate need to own that poor performance.

Do you believe the Remain campaign did a good job? I think it was the most piss poor effort in explaining a positive message for their side of the argument I've ever seen and the one potential downside risk that could have amounted to something at the ballot box was the least highlighted too. That's a situation your side has to own.

Unlike you, i'm more than comfortable with the vote outcome, so i don't need to naval gaze the result. If you want to learn from your loss, the first step is to understand what you got wrong.

[ORD]

jsf said:

Its a response to your position put forth that people didn't understand the implications of the vote.

If that is your position, then it follows that your side of the argument didn't do a good job of explaining the potential downsides. You can't expect the leave side to do that for you, that side has already assessed the issue as not a game changer for their position.

Using your own approach, that means the Remain campaign and those on that side of the debate need to own that poor performance.

Do you believe the Remain campaign did a good job? I think it was the most piss poor effort in explaining a positive message for their side of the argument I've ever seen and the one potential downside risk that could have amounted to something at the ballot box was the least highlighted too. That's a situation your side has to own.

Unlike you, i'm more than comfortable with the vote outcome, so i don't need to naval gaze the result. If you want to learn from your loss, the first step is to understand what you got wrong.

The missing premise here is this: only Remainers have to be grown ups about things; Leavers just do whatever they feel is right and don't have to worry about consequences. If Leavers voted for something that fks up Ireland, its Remainers' fault. Classic.

Reminds me of the 'had enough of experts' Leavers that, immediately after the vote, basically threw up their hands and said 'the experts now have to deliver the Perfect Brexit'.

[johnxjsc1985]

ORD said:

The missing premise here is this: only Remainers have to be grown ups about things; Leavers just do whatever they feel is right and don't have to worry about consequences. If Leavers voted for something that fks up Ireland, its Remainers' fault. Classic.

Reminds me of the 'had enough of experts' Leavers that, immediately after the vote, basically threw up their hands and said 'the experts now have to deliver the Perfect Brexit'.

you just keep on taking the medicine of only looking at articles that agree with you and you'll be just fine.

[///ajd]

jsf said:

Its a response to your position put forth that people didn't understand the implications of the vote.

If that is your position, then it follows that your side of the argument didn't do a good job of explaining the potential downsides. You can't expect the leave side to do that for you, that side has already assessed the issue as not a game changer for their position.

Using your own approach, that means the Remain campaign and those on that side of the debate need to own that poor performance.

Do you believe the Remain campaign did a good job? I think it was the most piss poor effort in explaining a positive message for their side of the argument I've ever seen and the one potential downside risk that could have amounted to something at the ballot box was the least highlighted too. That's a situation your side has to own.

Unlike you, i'm more than comfortable with the vote outcome, so i don't need to naval gaze the result. If you want to learn from your loss, the first step is to understand what you got wrong.

I thought you were joking before but it seems you are serious.

As with the BBC coverage, the issue was highlighted and brushed aside - it is yet more evidence in fact that Boris never expected to win. Just bullst away it won't matter, thought Boris, we'll never have to deliver this undeliverable brexit nonsense. Ooops.

The idea that leave could promise any old nonsense and it was up to remain to keep them in check is a rather terrifying insight into your critical thinking.

The only silver lining perhaps is that finally you might see that this part of brexit is very difficult to manage and it was quite wrong of brexit to sweep it under the carpet. Stay tuned, it is far from the only poorly thought out part of brexit, as the reality of the trade deal actually offered will show.

That Gisela brexit MP was on Sunday Politics trying to scrape together some German business people who wanted a good brexit. She even said - don't worry there are some EU elections in 2018, so we can get a better team in to negotiate with. Olympic standard straw clutching. Pathetic Gisela.

[anonymous-user]

What are you going to do with yourself when an arrangement that is "flexible" is agreed, as per the EU and UK positions?

[Eddie Strohacker]

jsf said:

Its a response to your position put forth that people didn't understand the implications of the vote.

If that is your position, then it follows that your side of the argument didn't do a good job of explaining the potential downsides. You can't expect the leave side to do that for you, that side has already assessed the issue as not a game changer for their position.

Using your own approach, that means the Remain campaign and those on that side of the debate need to own that poor performance.

Do you believe the Remain campaign did a good job? I think it was the most piss poor effort in explaining a positive message for their side of the argument I've ever seen and the one potential downside risk that could have amounted to something at the ballot box was the least highlighted too. That's a situation your side has to own.

Unlike you, i'm more than comfortable with the vote outcome, so i don't need to naval gaze the result. If you want to learn from your loss, the first step is to understand what you got wrong.

The project is never to blame. It is only the saboteurs spoiling everything,

[powerstroke]

jsf said:

What are you going to do with yourself when an arrangement that is "flexible" is agreed, as per the EU and UK positions?

I think Soros will sack him

[ORD]

jsf said:

What are you going to do with yourself when an arrangement that is "flexible" is agreed, as per the EU and UK positions?

I would have a huge party and be over the moon. It would save me tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds and be fantastic for the country.

Ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.

[Robertj21a]

ORD said:

jsf said:

What are you going to do with yourself when an arrangement that is "flexible" is agreed, as per the EU and UK positions?

I would have a huge party and be over the moon. It would save me tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds and be fantastic for the country.

Ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.

So, rather as expected, all your ranting actually comes down to the simple fact that Brexit is going to reduce your income/savings......

Why am I not surprised.

[Tuna]

Some on the Remain side do give the distinct impression that they're delighted to see issues being raised during Brexit (whether it's vehicle type approval, the NI border or whatever other headline is passing today), just so they can point and say "See, told you so, it can't possibly work!".

So I can understand jsf's position that you can't really say "told you so" when the issue that has suddenly become so dear to your heart was just not a big deal nine months ago, never mind before the actual Referendum.

And given that he (and I, and a few others) believe that a political fudge will be 'discovered', quite possibly at the eleventh hour, he might be forgiven for not having campaigned on the issue. It's not really a powerful slogan, is it, "Vote Leave, we don't think the NI border is impossible to solve but might take some discussions during the Article 50 negotiation period"?

[///ajd]

Well we've had:

- no £350m
- the row of the summer where we immediately capitulated
- our trade future lies in selling pigs ears to China
- Redwood is advising investors to ditch the UK and invest in the European CB.
- not paying a penny, er, apart from £20Bn. Not enough? Here, have £40Bn....
- absolutely no change in the NI/Eire border

Now it seems we can't recruit people to manage immigrant registration. Home Office is having problems increasing staffing levels and "may have to recruit Polish and other eastern Europeans to help register the 3 million EU nationals in Britain".

[James TiT]

///ajd said:

Well we've had:

- no £350m
- the row of the summer where we immediately capitulated
- our trade future lies in selling pigs ears to China
- Redwood is advising investors to ditch the UK and invest in the European CB.
- not paying a penny, er, apart from £20Bn. Not enough? Here, have £40Bn....
- absolutely no change in the NI/Eire border

Now it seems we can't recruit people to manage immigrant registration. Home Office is having problems increasing staffing levels and "may have to recruit Polish and other eastern Europeans to help register the 3 million EU nationals in Britain".

None of that is relevant.

[mike9009]

James TiT said:

///ajd said:

Well we've had:

- no £350m
- the row of the summer where we immediately capitulated
- our trade future lies in selling pigs ears to China
- Redwood is advising investors to ditch the UK and invest in the European CB.
- not paying a penny, er, apart from £20Bn. Not enough? Here, have £40Bn....
- absolutely no change in the NI/Eire border

Now it seems we can't recruit people to manage immigrant registration. Home Office is having problems increasing staffing levels and "may have to recruit Polish and other eastern Europeans to help register the 3 million EU nationals in Britain".

None of that is relevant.

Yes it is

[Eddie Strohacker]

mike9009 said:

Yes it is

James TiT is Santa Barbara. Same posting style, same irrelevance. same pattern of a dormant account for nine months suddenly posting on dozens of threads. Save your breath.

[Jockman]

mike9009 said:

Yes it is

Are we Remaining now?

[mike9009]

Jockman said:

mike9009 said:

Yes it is

Are we Remaining now?

Not that I am aware of??

[///ajd]

Jockman said:

Are we Remaining now?

No, it seems not. At least no one seems to have changed their minds despite reports like this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/br...

I recall you were almost neutral Jockman - what do you make of how it is going?

[ORD]

Robertj21a said:

So, rather as expected, all your ranting actually comes down to the simple fact that Brexit is going to reduce your income/savings......

Why am I not surprised.

Did you even read the post or any others I have made? Miss the bit about my concerns being for the country?

I'll probably earn slightly more money because of Brexit, but I'll probably be taxed even harder to try to reduce the deficit when the bottom falls out of the economy. The poor will of course be the worst hit. Brexit might make me personally worse off or better off overall - very hard to say. But it will bugger most people.

In any case, wouldn't it be legitimate to be concerned that Brexit was going to make me poorer? Personal wealth is a lot better a reason to vote on way or the other than 'My poor feelings! The EU upsets me!'

[Crackie]

Robertj21a said:

ORD said:

Robertj21a said:

Not at all, it seems that you have though

I know you think you're terribly clever, but please try to be civil.

I made the point that Leavers on here claim to have voted Leave in full knowledge of the likely economic harm.

Your response that you didn't get to vote on the economy either misses the point entirely or is stupid. Of course you didn't get to vote on the economy. But you and others claim not to have been tricked into thinking that trade would go on as before. If you voted with your eyes open, you must have anticipated economic harm if Leave were to win.

I think that, yet again, you should not make assumptions about other people.

Where on earth have I not been civil ? - it's you who now suggests that I'm missing the point, or stupid !

Where have I suggested that I thought trade would go on as before ?

I really do think you need to open your eyes much wider if you honestly believe that I, and others, who voted to Leave were *primarily* voting with a concern about the economy. If you really do think that then you're seriously out of touch with a significant proportion of the UK.

What I have said before, but I'll repeat it for you again, is that [b]many people (myself included) voted on one primary issue - we do not want to be a part of the EU, and particularly not within some 'ever greater union'. I voted to Leave so that my family, and all other future generations, will not find themselves tied in to an organisation which will struggle to survive. We were given an opportunity to get out now so, hardly surprisingly, many of us took it. I'm still amazed that the vote outside London/SE etc wasn't even higher. If you can't understand this simple point then I can see why you find other issues so difficult.

I fully expect there to be an economic impact on the UK for up to, say, 10 years. My personal view is that it won't be as dramatic as many 'experts' would have us believe - but I may well be terribly wrong (as they may also be).[/b] Given that we've hardly negotiated anything much so far then I guess none of us can really know more at present.

I don't know why ORD thought you hadn't been civil; you did well not to lower yourself to his level when you replied.

Your explanation in bold above is similar to my position but it is, and has been throughout the thread, pointless to engage with ORD. He has such indoctrinated views based upon poor assumptions about leavers motives, education or politics.

If ORD maintains form you can look forward to being labelled misguided, thick, racist, tricked, missing the point, xenophobic, gullible or ill-informed etc etc etc........

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

Now it seems we can't recruit people to manage immigrant registration. Home Office is having problems increasing staffing levels and "may have to recruit Polish and other eastern Europeans to help register the 3 million EU nationals in Britain".

Whats wrong with that? They are EU citizens here legally. Are you suggesting only UK born people can work for the civil service?