How do we think EU negotiations will go?
Discussion
PurpleMoonlight said:
ORD said:
The FT and the Economist employ journalists that can think and do research.
It is not surprise that they think the Brexit car crash is a car crash.
As for my insulting Brexiteers, I apologise. It is not helpful. But it's hard to remain entirely dispassionate when people are displaying the same extreme ignorance as that which is leading this country to a much poorer future. And all for nought. Literally no material benefits.
It rather depends what you value as material.It is not surprise that they think the Brexit car crash is a car crash.
As for my insulting Brexiteers, I apologise. It is not helpful. But it's hard to remain entirely dispassionate when people are displaying the same extreme ignorance as that which is leading this country to a much poorer future. And all for nought. Literally no material benefits.
A hell of a lot of people just object to being subject to EU policies and decisions. Even though many will have benefited from them.
More than 70% of economists predicted a year-long recessionn starting in 2016, after the Leave vote, in a survey by Bloomberg which was published on June 29, 2016.
That worked out well for them - not extreme ignorance just the usual incompetence with FT, Economist, Goldmans, Merril et al neither better nor worse as the latter pair said that the UK’s GDP would drop 2.5% almost immediately.
Why do people believe this dreck...because it aligns with their prejudged opinion.
frisbee said:
I find it ironic (or maybe a better word is horrific) that our government complains about the ECJ while proposing some of the most disgustingly invasive monitoring of its own citizens. Somebody needs to keep them in check.
That would be the British public. Why people think we need a foreign body that has no skin in the game to protect us is beyond me, it's bonkers. If we don't like the bunch doing horrific things, we chuck them out.Mainland Europe has a very poor record in this respect, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Salazar to name just 4 in the last century. The way the EU forced aside elected representatives and parachuted in their own people to manage the money in Greece and Italy does not bode well for their position on elected representation.
The UK and its population has a very good record in this respect.
Tuna said:
ORD said:
The FT and the Economist employ journalists that can think and do research.
I love the idea that thinking and doing research can only lead to one possible conclusion. Is that why you call anyone who disagrees with you an idiot?And blindly asserting faith in something contrary to the evidence is idiocy. Stupid is as stupid does.
As for not believing economists, try this: if putting faith in experts that can deploy reasoned arguments (acknowledging that they sometimes get it wrong) makes you a sheep, I am a sheep. But preferring to ignore experts in favour of what you are told by BoJo and Gove and Farage (even when it is plain that they tried to deceive you) makes you something much worse than a sheep.
I am yet to hear 1 concrete benefit of leaving the EU. It doesn't have to be certain. Something likely would do.
ORD said:
I am yet to hear 1 concrete benefit of leaving the EU. It doesn't have to be certain. Something likely would do.
We can set our own rate of VAT on products.eg. Ladies hygiene products - we can remove VAT.
Surely being able to be self determining on how much sales tax we charge is a good thing?
Do I win a prize?
If that blows your socks off.... just wait until you hear about how quickly non EU countries can negotiate trade deals - as opposed to the EU negotiating trade deals.. I mean.... no more kowtowing to the Walloon farmers in Belgium, or some Italian tomato growers..
We can just get on with it.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Friday 21st July 14:05
ORD said:
Not the only one. Just the vastly more likely one.
And blindly asserting faith in something contrary to the evidence is idiocy. Stupid is as stupid does.
As for not believing economists, try this: if putting faith in experts that can deploy reasoned arguments (acknowledging that they sometimes get it wrong) makes you a sheep, I am a sheep. But preferring to ignore experts in favour of what you are told by BoJo and Gove and Farage (even when it is plain that they tried to deceive you) makes you something much worse than a sheep.
I am yet to hear 1 concrete benefit of leaving the EU. It doesn't have to be certain. Something likely would do.
One concrete benefit to leaving the EU? Well I have seen a number posted in various threads on this very forum.And blindly asserting faith in something contrary to the evidence is idiocy. Stupid is as stupid does.
As for not believing economists, try this: if putting faith in experts that can deploy reasoned arguments (acknowledging that they sometimes get it wrong) makes you a sheep, I am a sheep. But preferring to ignore experts in favour of what you are told by BoJo and Gove and Farage (even when it is plain that they tried to deceive you) makes you something much worse than a sheep.
I am yet to hear 1 concrete benefit of leaving the EU. It doesn't have to be certain. Something likely would do.
I will offer two:
1. The ability of the UK to establish more favourable, UK focussed trade agreements with rapidly growing economies outside the EU.
2. The ability, over time, (Note!) to establish a better working relationship with our European allies as a result of not constantly being seen as the the roadblock to the ever closer Union and creation of a Federal European Superstate that is the desire of other major EU members.
Troubleatmill said:
We can set our own rate of VAT on products.
eg. Ladies hygiene products - we can remove VAT.
Surely being able to be self determining on how much sales tax we charge is a good thing?
Do I win a prize?
No, he's going to call you an idiot because you believed something said by someone he doesn't like. That's ORDs tactic. Anyone he believes is a reasoned expert (despite some stellar mistakes predicting the outcome of a leave vote), and anyone you believe is a ignorant fool.eg. Ladies hygiene products - we can remove VAT.
Surely being able to be self determining on how much sales tax we charge is a good thing?
Do I win a prize?
And if you've given reasoned debate with facts taken from trusted sources, he'll either ignore you, or claim you believed something said by someone you've never quoted or even mentioned.
ORD said:
Not the only one. Just the vastly more likely one.
And blindly asserting faith in something contrary to the evidence is idiocy. Stupid is as stupid does.
As for not believing economists, try this: if putting faith in experts that can deploy reasoned arguments (acknowledging that they sometimes get it wrong) makes you a sheep, I am a sheep. But preferring to ignore experts in favour of what you are told by BoJo and Gove and Farage (even when it is plain that they tried to deceive you) makes you something much worse than a sheep.
I am yet to hear 1 concrete benefit of leaving the EU. It doesn't have to be certain. Something likely would do.
To add to the list - the replacement of CAP with a system that doesn't simply reward land ownership.And blindly asserting faith in something contrary to the evidence is idiocy. Stupid is as stupid does.
As for not believing economists, try this: if putting faith in experts that can deploy reasoned arguments (acknowledging that they sometimes get it wrong) makes you a sheep, I am a sheep. But preferring to ignore experts in favour of what you are told by BoJo and Gove and Farage (even when it is plain that they tried to deceive you) makes you something much worse than a sheep.
I am yet to hear 1 concrete benefit of leaving the EU. It doesn't have to be certain. Something likely would do.
andymadmak said:
One concrete benefit to leaving the EU? Well I have seen a number posted in various threads on this very forum.
I will offer two:
1. The ability of the UK to establish more favourable, UK focussed trade agreements with rapidly growing economies outside the EU.
2. The ability, over time, (Note!) to establish a better working relationship with our European allies as a result of not constantly being seen as the the roadblock to the ever closer Union and creation of a Federal European Superstate that is the desire of other major EU members.
So things that might in theory happen if we had a competent government and only in the long term. Maybe. Perhaps.I will offer two:
1. The ability of the UK to establish more favourable, UK focussed trade agreements with rapidly growing economies outside the EU.
2. The ability, over time, (Note!) to establish a better working relationship with our European allies as a result of not constantly being seen as the the roadblock to the ever closer Union and creation of a Federal European Superstate that is the desire of other major EU members.
Great. Not obviously worth a huge drop in quality of life for 60m people. Not worth the huge risk that generates of a Corbyn administration and therefore near-total economic disaster.
Troubleatmill said:
We can set our own rate of VAT on products.
eg. Ladies hygiene products - we can remove VAT.
Surely being able to be self determining on how much sales tax we charge is a good thing?
Good grief, supporting the feminazi victimisation banner huh.eg. Ladies hygiene products - we can remove VAT.
Surely being able to be self determining on how much sales tax we charge is a good thing?
Of course, the UK may, with their new found powers, extend VAT to areas that they cannot currently. Be careful what you wish for.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Troubleatmill said:
We can set our own rate of VAT on products.
eg. Ladies hygiene products - we can remove VAT.
Surely being able to be self determining on how much sales tax we charge is a good thing?
Good grief, supporting the feminazi victimisation banner huh.eg. Ladies hygiene products - we can remove VAT.
Surely being able to be self determining on how much sales tax we charge is a good thing?
If course, the UK may, with their new found powers, extend VAT to areas that they cannot currently. Be careful what you wish for.
That should be worrying.
Many of you leaver folks seem to consciously overlook the point that much of the EU supposed "red tape", the various directives and regulations, are for the purpose of harmonising standards, so facilitating ease of trade across Europe. In practice British companies will have to continue to produce products that are compliant with EU regulations if they want to trade them there.
ORD said:
So things that might in theory happen if we had a competent government and only in the long term. Maybe. Perhaps.
Great. Not obviously worth a huge drop in quality of life for 60m people.
ooookkk.. So now, according to you, the UK is unlikely to be able to negotiate trade deals quickly (despite what a number of nations have already said on this subject) It's all, "maybe , perhaps"...Great. Not obviously worth a huge drop in quality of life for 60m people.
But according to you it's a certainty that there will be a "huge drop in the quality of life for 60million people"
I'm not sure you're worth debating with if those are the levels of critical thinking that you can come up with.
mx-6 said:
Many of you leaver folks seem to consciously overlook the point that much of the EU supposed "red tape", the various directives and regulations, are for the purpose of harmonising standards, so facilitating ease of trade across Europe. In practice British companies will have to continue to produce products that are compliant with EU regulations if they want to trade them there .
Just as we do for the USA, China, Japan, Australia... the point being we can choose which costs of compliance we incurmx-6 said:
Many of you leaver folks seem to consciously overlook the point that much of the EU supposed "red tape", the various directives and regulations, are for the purpose of harmonising standards, so facilitating ease of trade across Europe. In practice British companies will have to continue to produce products that are compliant with EU regulations if they want to trade them there.
And what proportion of our GDP is dependent on that? And why would it make any difference to those companies who do trade with the EU?What is your point here? In practice our exporting companies have to meet the standards of any export market.
mx-6 said:
Many of you leaver folks seem to consciously overlook the point that much of the EU supposed "red tape", the various directives and regulations, are for the purpose of harmonising standards, so facilitating ease of trade across Europe. In practice British companies will have to continue to produce products that are compliant with EU regulations if they want to trade them there.
Working with a company that produces electronic devices, including radio equipment, I can say the UK is an expert in producing products that work in many different regulatory regimes, most of which (including the EU) are not compatible with our own domestic product. Being able to deliver global products, rather than purely domestic ones is a highly valued skill.If we really only cared about having standards that enabled trade, I have some diagrams for approved Chinese power sockets somewhere..
The point being of course that meeting a standard doesn't require that you're a member nation, and that as we've already met most of those standards where trade is ongoing the amount of effort required to keep meeting those standards is unlikely to be onerous.
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