How do we think EU negotiations will go?
Discussion
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
My mistake......result ignored then? Are you for real?
Yes, but it's a moot point as once A50 is triggered the ability to rescind it is questionable.I was just interested if leave voters thought it should be effected if subsequent developments changed peoples mind about wanting to leave.
alfie2244 said:
Even though the UK only ever voted to join an " economic common market" 40 years ago (no under 60's involved) I do think there should be another referendum on joining in 20 yrs time in whatever form the EU takes at that time...if it exists at all that is.
Make it 40,that seems fair to me.jsf said:
///ajd said:
jsf said:
babatunde said:
jsf said:
That would be the British public. Why people think we need a foreign body that has no skin in the game to protect us is beyond me, it's bonkers. If we don't like the bunch doing horrific things, we chuck them out.
Mainland Europe has a very poor record in this respect, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Salazar to name just 4 in the last century.
Brexit, because Hitler, is the most Godwin argument ever, pray tell which recess of your mind thinks that is a good negotiating pointMainland Europe has a very poor record in this respect, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Salazar to name just 4 in the last century.
"If we don't like the bunch doing horrific things, we chuck them out. Mainland Europe has a very poor record in this respect, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Salazar to name just 4 in the last century."
Who is the "bunch" doing horrific things? Who are you proposing to "chuck out"?
It sounds like more than an individual, more like a defined group.
Hitler had a record for getting rid of a "bunch" he persuaded his nation were doing "horrific things" and who were the source of the ills of Germany.
Or were you suggesting Germany should have "chucked out" Hitler? Chucked out to where? He was elected by the people of course. Are you suggesting Germany should have somehow ignored the "democratic will of the people" in getting rid of Hitler? Perhaps had another vote? He made that quite tricky in 1933 of course; fancy that, a government bring in an act to sweep away democracy & parliamentary powers (Great Repeal Bill anyone?).
Lets just all dwell on the clear linkage between small minded Nationalism, its association with blaming foreigners for our ills, and some of the key motivations behind brexit.
You throw around the words idiot and stupid, and yet you decided to try and look clever by bringing up Hitler in the context of brexit.
How do you think it went?
Yet more testimony to the driving mindset.
Eddie Strohacker said:
Yes.
We've danced this dance before..........a low volume, bi-monthly journal that had less circulation than the Beano.Heath said the EEC was just a free trade association. But he was lying through his teeth. He knew that the original members of the EEC had a long-standing commitment to political union and the step by step creation of a European superstate.
“There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”
A good read: http://www.richardmilton.net/the-secret-edward-hea...
Whether you were leave or remain, I think that a referendum that said "Clean Brexit" or "Closer Union leading to Federal European state" would have been a much clearer question and, in my view, would have resulted in an even stronger "Leave" vote.
I wish our European friends well with their project and hope we can support them from outside to achieve it, but I don't want to be part of it as they get ever closer.
Deptford Draylons said:
Didn't vote ? How come ?
Would be interesting to know which way Remainers voted at the last general election. So far though they are a secretive bunch refusing to say.
I'm not posting but occasionally browse this Thread for mild amusement: I voted Remain and Lib-dems. Would be interesting to know which way Remainers voted at the last general election. So far though they are a secretive bunch refusing to say.
I've also left the UK....but that process began 6 months before the Referendum and has finally been completed in June this year. Yay me
I now live in The Algarve and Amsterdam. I still strongly believe that the UK has embarked upon an unnecessary period of pain - brought about by greedy, self-serving Politicians eager to mark their territory rather than truly and honesty debate what is best for the Country - only to ultimately find itself no better off than before; successive UK Governments will provide no real legislative or financial benefits in the long run vs remaining in the EU where they had great influence anyway - it is all smoke and mirrors in my opinion that any UK Government will make life any better out of the EU than in. They will adopt all EU Laws in the short term and...watch...none of any significance will actually be changed to make any fundamental difference to the average chap or chappess.
While I do wish all in the UK well, I am convinced most will suffer financially in the short to medium term during and immediately after Brexit but will emerge eventually to the brave new World post-Brexit at an uncertain Date to find nothing is much changed at all. No real benefits and that includes immigration concerns as the UK brings in the same number of people under the guise of much-needed work-force because the majority of the local population who decried jobs being taken from them prove unwilling when their bluff is called.
So all for nothing. In my opinion.
We'll see. Too early to call for sure right now and I watch with interest at how, so far, the UK negotiating Team is looking increasingly foolish and not up to a task they seem to be finding is out of their depth.
One last point if I may...I do not agree Remainers should be expected to adopt the Brexiteers stance just because they lost the vote and make the best of a bad situation if they still strongly believe that their view is correct. Indeed, those Remainers should be expected, as in every Democracy, to fight against what they do not believe in!
When the Conservatives win Power you do not see Labour Supporters suddenly supporting the Tories because, "they won' get behind them!" No! If anyone in the UK feels the Referendum result is wrong then it is their Democratic right to campaign for what they feel they can get behind.
If there are enough Remainers who feel that way and it does jeopardise what the Brexiteers believe would be a better end game if only everyone now adopted the wishes of the majority then it just proves that the result was too close to guarantee a solution in the best interests of all and should therefore be debated further!
Again, all in my own opinion, you understand. Right, I'm off for a swim. Have a good weekend all.
Whilst I don't agree with your conclusions, your post is fair and cogent.
In my view the negotiations are going exactly as I would expect...they say they want something, we say that doesn't work for us, and you start discussing compromise.
Take the exit bill...the EU says "you must accept you will pay" and we say "no problem, explain the legal basis for the bill and we will agree terms"...perfectly reasonable.
Take the arbiter for residents rights. We say ECJ for UK citizens in the EU, UK courts for EU citizens in the U.K., exactly the same as in the rest of the world. Nothing unreasonable about it.
I do think we will see some short term economic disruption, but my view is that an ever closer union of the remaining EU states is good for both us and them.
PurpleMoonlight said:
What if people have changed their mind because of new information being available that wasn't at the time of the vote.
Would you still expect the original result to be adhered to?
The only people I know who would probably now change their vote are a couple who were 'scared' by all the doom and gloom of what might happen to us outside the EU. They are so fed up with the EU's attitude to us that they'd probably change their vote, to Brexit.Would you still expect the original result to be adhered to?
ORD said:
Such sad times when people are than infantile.
'If they are going to mean, I would rather take the drop in quality of life than just be a grown up and deal with it.'
Sad times when people don't consider accepting a short term hit for long term advantages.'If they are going to mean, I would rather take the drop in quality of life than just be a grown up and deal with it.'
Let us be honest, in a hard brexit, the average persons 'drop in quality of life' will be 1 or 2 holidays instead of 3 or 4 a year, eating out once or twice a month instead of 4 times a month, changing cars every 4 years instead of two...
Perhaps even keeping that mobile phone a bit longer. We are not talking widespread homelessness...
Frankly there is so much foreign money invested in the UK, we won't even be handling this alone. A recent OECD report said that if London property crashed, the UK itself would not be too affected, as it is all foreign cash.
Robertj21a said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
What if people have changed their mind because of new information being available that wasn't at the time of the vote.
Would you still expect the original result to be adhered to?
The only people I know who would probably now change their vote are a couple who were 'scared' by all the doom and gloom of what might happen to us outside the EU. They are so fed up with the EU's attitude to us that they'd probably change their vote, to Brexit.Would you still expect the original result to be adhered to?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/02/remain-...
jjlynn27 said:
In case that you didn't conjure them out of thin air for the purpose of that post, they don't seem to be representative.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/02/remain-...
Umm....the polls 12 hours before the last referendum said Remain would win about 54/46. How can you now take a poll saying exactly the same thing and extrapolate a certain result based on the same evidence? Pie in the sky stuff and the truth is no one knows.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/02/remain-...
FWIW I also know virtually no one who has changed their minds. Everyone I know who voted Remain still think leaving is a bad thing and everyone who voted Leave would do the same again. On a different day the result might have been 52/48 Remain, who knows - it was that close, but there is little subjective or objective evidence to suggest anyone in significant numbers has changed their mind at all in any direction.
jjlynn27 said:
In case that you didn't conjure them out of thin air for the purpose of that post, they don't seem to be representative.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/02/remain-...
How did the same pollster get on with predicting the original referendum?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/02/remain-...
Nothingtoseehere said:
5x more people surveyed as well.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff