How do we think EU negotiations will go?
Discussion
alfie2244 said:
ORD said:
It is quite cringe-worthy when people laud democracy as though it is anything more than the least bad option. Referendums are absolutely notorious for being decided by the strength of the campaigns on either side, rather than the merits of the underlying issue.
Which side spent £9m of taxpayers money, had virtually all the establishment, and majority of the media on their side, and had 40yrs of "EU benefits" to draw from and yet, by your reckoning, ran the weaker campaign ? rhetorical obviously.ORD said:
alfie2244 said:
ORD said:
It is quite cringe-worthy when people laud democracy as though it is anything more than the least bad option. Referendums are absolutely notorious for being decided by the strength of the campaigns on either side, rather than the merits of the underlying issue.
Which side spent £9m of taxpayers money, had virtually all the establishment, and majority of the media on their side, and had 40yrs of "EU benefits" to draw from and yet, by your reckoning, ran the weaker campaign ? rhetorical obviously.ORD said:
Nobody thinks that is a serious possibility, do they? Really?
Britain was an economic basket case for almost every year from 1945 until it joined the EU. It has no track record of economic success other than in the EU. You could point to the financial services boom and say that it was not caused by membership, which is fair enough, but the other side of that coin is that financial services is one of the sectors most at risk from Brexit.
It's as likely a scenario as us becoming a third world economic disaster zone... Britain was an economic basket case for almost every year from 1945 until it joined the EU. It has no track record of economic success other than in the EU. You could point to the financial services boom and say that it was not caused by membership, which is fair enough, but the other side of that coin is that financial services is one of the sectors most at risk from Brexit.
The UK is doing fine with trade outside the EU, and had a pretty good track record before 1939. Economically it's doing OK considering the world is still recovering from 2008, though productivity is woeful (we're not alone there and the EU is not helping it).
I was recommended Yanis Varoufakis' "And the Weak Suffer What They Must"... There's plenty in there to indicate what happened to this country and European states between '45 and joining the EEC. It's worth a read. (Even though I'm more nonplussed than ever as to why he thinks the EU as it has become is worth persevering with).
alfie2244 said:
Ironically it was the EU part funding my studies and learning more about it's workings that actually convinced me it was a Ponzi scheme best left as soon as possible....don't you think there's a desire for an EU army then?
You clearly don't understand what a Ponzi scheme is.alfie2244 said:
Ironically it was the EU part funding my studies and learning more about it's workings that actually convinced me it was a Ponzi scheme best left as soon as possible....don't you think there's a desire for an EU army then?
I assume your studies did not include Ponzi schemes. The EU is many things a Ponzi scheme it is not. Now the UK government is a Ponzi scheme are you planning on leaving the UK.ORD said:
I have never met a single person who thinks the Remain campaign was run well. It was fist-gnawingly incompetent and was up against decades of misinformation by the right-wing press. Bendy bananas? EU army? Turkey in the EU? All that utter rubbish.
It may have been but what did you do during it? One of the common themes is people complain about it then you ask them how many doors they knocked on during the campaign and they did sweet bugger all.What did you do in terms of canvassing or whatever for the Remain side?
The remainers on this thread seem to have remarkable faith that the EU is capable of dealing with its problems. Maybe it can be done if the Germans bend a bit, but the indications are poor. More likely that the EU will have to experience a financial disaster before it changes to something workable. We are better off out until that happens.
confused_buyer said:
It may have been but what did you do during it? One of the common themes is people complain about it then you ask them how many doors they knocked on during the campaign and they did sweet bugger all.
What did you do in terms of canvassing or whatever for the Remain side?
What is the relevance? It's false equivalence to suggest you can't be a faithful remainer unless you campaigned for it. I play guitar in bands, never made it on to Top of the pops - does that mean I'm faking it?What did you do in terms of canvassing or whatever for the Remain side?
Mrr T said:
alfie2244 said:
Ironically it was the EU part funding my studies and learning more about it's workings that actually convinced me it was a Ponzi scheme best left as soon as possible....don't you think there's a desire for an EU army then?
I assume your studies did not include Ponzi schemes. The EU is many things a Ponzi scheme it is not. Now the UK government is a Ponzi scheme are you planning on leaving the UK.confused_buyer said:
ORD said:
I have never met a single person who thinks the Remain campaign was run well. It was fist-gnawingly incompetent and was up against decades of misinformation by the right-wing press. Bendy bananas? EU army? Turkey in the EU? All that utter rubbish.
It may have been but what did you do during it? One of the common themes is people complain about it then you ask them how many doors they knocked on during the campaign and they did sweet bugger all.What did you do in terms of canvassing or whatever for the Remain side?
"The public" has neither the information nor the attention span to deal with highly complex questions like whether it is in the national interest to be in one trading bloc or another. It does, however, know how to reward a good campaign and punish a bad one. See also the last GE.
ORD said:
confused_buyer said:
ORD said:
I have never met a single person who thinks the Remain campaign was run well. It was fist-gnawingly incompetent and was up against decades of misinformation by the right-wing press. Bendy bananas? EU army? Turkey in the EU? All that utter rubbish.
It may have been but what did you do during it? One of the common themes is people complain about it then you ask them how many doors they knocked on during the campaign and they did sweet bugger all.What did you do in terms of canvassing or whatever for the Remain side?
"The public" has neither the information nor the attention span to deal with highly complex questions like whether it is in the national interest to be in one trading bloc or another. It does, however, know how to reward a good campaign and punish a bad one. See also the last GE.
Eddie Strohacker said:
What is the relevance? It's false equivalence to suggest you can't be a faithful remainer unless you campaigned for it. I play guitar in bands, never made it on to Top of the pops - does that mean I'm faking it?
No, but if you feel passionate about it you should get involved. At least you can say you tried and did your bit. Certainly around here, Leave was far more present on the ground locally in terms of signs, canvassing or whatever. Remain no where to be seen. I think I saw one poster and saw no actual people. The end result, locally, was 50.2% for Leave so they wouldn't have been wasting their time.It isn't a lot of good being all vocal after the event. It is too late. Your energy was needed for the Remain side in June, on the ground, not energetic posting in internet forums 14 months later.
Heads up for the Remoaners
Nick Clegg to publish 'How to Stop Brexit'
https://www.thebookseller.com/news/nick-clegg-publ...
Nick Clegg to publish 'How to Stop Brexit'
https://www.thebookseller.com/news/nick-clegg-publ...
confused_buyer said:
Eddie Strohacker said:
What is the relevance? It's false equivalence to suggest you can't be a faithful remainer unless you campaigned for it. I play guitar in bands, never made it on to Top of the pops - does that mean I'm faking it?
No, but if you feel passionate about it you should get involved. At least you can say you tried and did your bit. Certainly around here, Leave was far more present on the ground locally in terms of signs, canvassing or whatever. Remain no where to be seen. I think I saw one poster and saw no actual people. The end result, locally, was 50.2% for Leave so they wouldn't have been wasting their time.It isn't a lot of good being all vocal after the event. It is too late. Your energy was needed for the Remain side in June, on the ground, not energetic posting in internet forums 14 months later.
"The s
t thing which is happening to everyone isn't the fault of the people who wanted the st thing, but of those who didn't do enough to stop it, despite the latter constituency not realising that so many people wouldn't understand that what they were about to do was a really st thing because they had faith that most people weren't so stupid as to vote for a really st thing."Everyone can be vocal after any event they don't approve of, especially important to be so if the consequences of that event can be averted still. It's called democracy, get over it.
confused_buyer said:
No, but if you feel passionate about it you should get involved. At least you can say you tried and did your bit. Certainly around here, Leave was far more present on the ground locally in terms of signs, canvassing or whatever. Remain no where to be seen. I think I saw one poster and saw no actual people. The end result, locally, was 50.2% for Leave so they wouldn't have been wasting their time.
It isn't a lot of good being all vocal after the event. It is too late. Your energy was needed for the Remain side in June, on the ground, not energetic posting in internet forums 14 months later.
Racists and various other ideologues are generally (1) very strongly motivated and (2) not in jobs that require them to work all hours. Remainers were busy working and paying tax.It isn't a lot of good being all vocal after the event. It is too late. Your energy was needed for the Remain side in June, on the ground, not energetic posting in internet forums 14 months later.
ORD said:
Not sure what you're on about now. I am not complaining about the Remain campaign. I am pointing out that it was terrible and that, like almost all referendums, the result spoke to the quality of the two campaigns and not the underlying merits.
"The public" has neither the information nor the attention span to deal with highly complex questions like whether it is in the national interest to be in one trading bloc or another. It does, however, know how to reward a good campaign and punish a bad one. See also the last GE.
The EU is no longer just a trading bloc... If it was we wouldn't be wasting electrons on these debates "The public" has neither the information nor the attention span to deal with highly complex questions like whether it is in the national interest to be in one trading bloc or another. It does, however, know how to reward a good campaign and punish a bad one. See also the last GE.
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