How do we think EU negotiations will go?
Discussion
andymadmak said:
Some on the remain side honestly believe that the EU could have been reformed from within, despite all the evidence to the contrary that showed that not only was the EU unwilling to reform, but also that the standard EU answer to the problems of the EU was/is MORE EU.
Junckers speech is discomforting for remainers because it drives a coach and horses through their line of thinking. The standard answer to the speech is that " if we had stayed in we had a veto that could have stopped it all from happening"......... Which may be true to some degree, but ignores the precarious nature of the veto and further ignores just how damaging it would have been to the UKs relations with fellow member states by being always seen as the barrier to the aspirations of the majority.
Note it might be the aspiration of the majority of politicians within those countries, but not necessarily the majority of voters within those countries!Junckers speech is discomforting for remainers because it drives a coach and horses through their line of thinking. The standard answer to the speech is that " if we had stayed in we had a veto that could have stopped it all from happening"......... Which may be true to some degree, but ignores the precarious nature of the veto and further ignores just how damaging it would have been to the UKs relations with fellow member states by being always seen as the barrier to the aspirations of the majority.
andymadmak said:
I did try asking on several occasions what the referendum outcome would have been if Juncker had been allowed to make his speech in the week before the vote. I never get an answer from remainers, instead I am told that it is stupid to speculate and I am catigated for indulging in "whataboutary and what ifs..."
The answer again though is pretty clear to all but the most ardent remainers. The true path for the EU is not something that the UK people wanted to follow. Ever closer union, a single state, a European head of state, EU taxes ( in addition to VAT), an EU army and all the other paraphanalia of a super state that the EU craves to be are not supported by the overwhelming majority in the UK in my honest opinion.
There was always going to come a time when the fudges and half truths that took us into the EC, and which have kept us in since the 1975 Refer ndum were going to come up against the the realities of the future direction of the EU - a direction which was written into the founding treaties and which has been repeated regularly ever since.
The EU was never going to be just the "pooling of some sovereignty, and mostly about trade".
It was always about ever closer union and a single European state. 40 years of dishonesty by British politicians, aided by a like minded media pack have got us to where we are today.
Agreed.The answer again though is pretty clear to all but the most ardent remainers. The true path for the EU is not something that the UK people wanted to follow. Ever closer union, a single state, a European head of state, EU taxes ( in addition to VAT), an EU army and all the other paraphanalia of a super state that the EU craves to be are not supported by the overwhelming majority in the UK in my honest opinion.
There was always going to come a time when the fudges and half truths that took us into the EC, and which have kept us in since the 1975 Refer ndum were going to come up against the the realities of the future direction of the EU - a direction which was written into the founding treaties and which has been repeated regularly ever since.
The EU was never going to be just the "pooling of some sovereignty, and mostly about trade".
It was always about ever closer union and a single European state. 40 years of dishonesty by British politicians, aided by a like minded media pack have got us to where we are today.
andymadmak said:
I did try asking on several occasions what the referendum outcome would have been if Juncker had been allowed to make his speech in the week before the vote. I never get an answer from remainers, instead I am told that it is stupid to speculate and I am catigated for indulging in "whataboutary and what ifs..."
Well we've had Juncker's speech, and a recent YouGov poll for the Times found "that just 42% of voters now think Britain was right to back Brexit, with 47% saying it was wrong."Yes the polls go up and down a lot on this issue, but I think those numbers show Juncker's speech isn't the slam-dunk for leave you maybe think it is.
Crackie said:
Would you consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Europe to be a reasonably balanced and pragmatic organisation ?
What do you think of their conclusions ? https://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and...
Sadly I suspect that your relentless, narrow minded "As it all turns to dust" cynicism and negativity will prevent you from reading the article with and open mind.
Worthless because it does not assume a Corbyn government, which is almost inevitable. Socialism + Brexit is the real disaster. What do you think of their conclusions ? https://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and...
Sadly I suspect that your relentless, narrow minded "As it all turns to dust" cynicism and negativity will prevent you from reading the article with and open mind.
Edited by Crackie on Saturday 14th October 16:56
Mrr T said:
Tuna said:
Not wishing to be pedantic, but effect is the consequence, affect is the action of producing the consequence. You affect things, and observe the effect of your actions.
I do not often argue about English but in this case I still think I am right. The introduction of a customs border is the action and the economic down turn the consequence.http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/03/affect-...
I do agree my misspellings of Schengen was an error.
Mr T said:
...creating a customs border in Ireland will effect the economies of both north and south
You were using it in the place of a verb.egor110 said:
citizensm1th said:
That is very much my stance, brexiteers got their way now it is up to them to prove that what they said is right .
I reserve the right to stand on the sidelines and mock as their vision turns out to be misguided at best
Surely regardless if your remainer/leaver if this goes tits up we're all going to suffer ?I reserve the right to stand on the sidelines and mock as their vision turns out to be misguided at best
So rather than standing on the sidelines you could end up in the thick of it ( despite voting to remain )
i had my vote, my side lost that doesn't mean i have to agree with the results and doesn't mean i can't enjoy watching the brexiteers promises crumble
from my point of view it all went tits up as soon as the vote was lost
55palfers said:
Against £285m spent on ‘the worlds most useless airport’ in the South Atlantichttps://www.theguardian.com/travel/2017/oct/09/st-...
B'stard Child said:
citizensm1th said:
egor110 said:
citizensm1th said:
That is very much my stance, brexiteers got their way now it is up to them to prove that what they said is right .
I reserve the right to stand on the sidelines and mock as their vision turns out to be misguided at best
Surely regardless if your remainer/leaver if this goes tits up we're all going to suffer ?I reserve the right to stand on the sidelines and mock as their vision turns out to be misguided at best
So rather than standing on the sidelines you could end up in the thick of it ( despite voting to remain )
citizensm1th said:
i had my vote, my side lost that doesn't mean i have to agree with the results and doesn't mean i can't enjoy watching the brexiteers promises crumble
from my point of view it all went tits up as soon as the vote was lost
I had my vote, my side won so was happy with the result and means I am just waiting for all the remain promises of doom and plagues of locusts to happenfrom my point of view it all went tits up as soon as the vote was lost
from my point of view it all went tits up as soon we didn't leave the day after the vote like DC said we would - all this pointless negotiation is just that pointless
the gains to the nation that the breiteers promised how ever need to materialise
the land of milk and honey better turn up along with DD's trade deals
citizensm1th said:
remain promises mean nothing as remain lost
the gains to the nation that the breiteers promised how ever need to materialise
the land of milk and honey better turn up along with DD's trade deals
No-one promised a land of milk and honey. Just an opinion that the outcome would be better than the alternative.the gains to the nation that the breiteers promised how ever need to materialise
the land of milk and honey better turn up along with DD's trade deals
cookie118 said:
Well we've had Juncker's speech, and a recent YouGov poll for the Times found "that just 42% of voters now think Britain was right to back Brexit, with 47% saying it was wrong."
Yes the polls go up and down a lot on this issue, but I think those numbers show Juncker's speech isn't the slam-dunk for leave you maybe think it is.
Do you seriously believe that most people would ever listen to a Juncker speech ?Yes the polls go up and down a lot on this issue, but I think those numbers show Juncker's speech isn't the slam-dunk for leave you maybe think it is.
p1stonhead said:
55palfers said:
Against £285m spent on ‘the worlds most useless airport’ in the South Atlantichttps://www.theguardian.com/travel/2017/oct/09/st-...
The museum's just another EU ego burden on the taxpayer.
Tuna said:
Mrr T said:
Tuna said:
Not wishing to be pedantic, but effect is the consequence, affect is the action of producing the consequence. You affect things, and observe the effect of your actions.
I do not often argue about English but in this case I still think I am right. The introduction of a customs border is the action and the economic down turn the consequence.http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/03/affect-...
I do agree my misspellings of Schengen was an error.
Mr T said:
...creating a customs border in Ireland will effect the economies of both north and south
You were using it in the place of a verb.Now about the customs border in Ireland.
sidicks said:
citizensm1th said:
remain promises mean nothing as remain lost
the gains to the nation that the breiteers promised how ever need to materialise
the land of milk and honey better turn up along with DD's trade deals
No-one promised a land of milk and honey. Just an opinion that the outcome would be better than the alternative.the gains to the nation that the breiteers promised how ever need to materialise
the land of milk and honey better turn up along with DD's trade deals
jsf said:
Are you a citizen of another country other than the UK, or just a UK citizen resident in another EU country as a consequence of the current UK membership terms?
UK born, UK Passport, South African Citizenship, married to a Belgian Citizen, Portuguese Residency applied for. No probs, own a house outright here and contribute, mere formality to get Citizenship here in the future. Unlikely worst case, I get a Belgian Citizenship if needs be.
One thing is certain, I'd rather return to SA than go back to the UK now but I have options to remain in the EU permanently.
Coolbanana said:
jsf said:
Are you a citizen of another country other than the UK, or just a UK citizen resident in another EU country as a consequence of the current UK membership terms?
UK born, UK Passport, South African Citizenship, married to a Belgian Citizen, Portuguese Residency applied for. No probs, own a house outright here and contribute, mere formality to get Citizenship here in the future. Unlikely worst case, I get a Belgian Citizenship if needs be.
One thing is certain, I'd rather return to SA than go back to the UK now but I have options to remain in the EU permanently.
The UK membership of the EU is irrelevant to your personal circumstances.
SA, stunning country but has some serious problems to overcome, and it looks to be going downhill rapidly, sadly.
Coolbanana said:
UK born, UK Passport, South African Citizenship, married to a Belgian Citizen, Portuguese Residency applied for.
No probs, own a house outright here and contribute, mere formality to get Citizenship here in the future. Unlikely worst case, I get a Belgian Citizenship if needs be.
One thing is certain, I'd rather return to SA than go back to the UK now but I have options to remain in the EU permanently.
I'd agree that you should return to SA rather than the UK.....No probs, own a house outright here and contribute, mere formality to get Citizenship here in the future. Unlikely worst case, I get a Belgian Citizenship if needs be.
One thing is certain, I'd rather return to SA than go back to the UK now but I have options to remain in the EU permanently.
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