How do we think EU negotiations will go?

[Mrr T]

KrissKross said:

Mrr T said:

This is a great idea. Let’s get rid of all product standards. Who cares if teddy bears have eyes attached with pins, what’s a few crippled children, when we can have truly free trade.

Yes sounds sensible, why not setup a business selling "break your child" toys, BYC will take off and you will become a millionaire very soon, please post in the business section so we can keep track of how you do.

Have you seen some of the dangerous crap you can buy from China on eBay, how much "EU" compliance does most of that have, I can tell you none, as I used to be one of the people selling dodgy crap on the internet many moons ago!

I choose the subject of break your child toys because this was an issue in the past and one dealt with by having regulatory standards and councils having trading standards obligations.

The fact that you can buy dodgy crap from China on ebay is not something the EU/UK/local council can do much about. Personally I avoid that type of item on ebay.

Interesting you admit to be a buyer of dodgy crap from China which you then sold on in the UK. You obviously had no idea of your legal obligations. Maybe it good you stopped I have seen local councils prosecution of a number of such traders and the fines where eye watering.

[Eddie Strohacker]

Greg66 said:

Sway said:

As per the convo with Gregg, the statements of an EU President that's it's a worthless document mitigate your claim that we were guaranteed to be absolved of the liability.

I assume this is what you're referring to: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/davi...

Said by Shulz on 16 Feb prior to the deal.

This is what select EU national leaders were saying on 16 Feb pre-deal (generally pro Cameron's position): http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/davi...

The deal was reached on 18-19 Feb and according to the EU Council's website was "a legally binding and irreversible decision by all 28 leaders": http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/uk/2016...

So perhaps that piece of paper had some value after all.

A well used tactic on either side, in fairness is to discredit something that contradicts one's position. Sway is nothing new doing this, although more usually, one sees it in respect of QMV spiking our opt outs in Brexit threads as incontrovertible proof that they made the right decision, the unthinking asserting the unlikely. T'was ever thus.

[sidicks]

Eddie Strohacker said:

No no, you misunderstand. I am here to debate & do so daily, as any cursory glance through these threads will demonstrate. I just think you're a gimp. See? Different thing altogether.

You’ve entered zero debate on Target 2, just linked to the BBC website and offered nothing to the reasonable challenges posed to you, while throwing out insults int the process. That’s not ‘debate’.

[drainbrain]

[Eddie Strohacker]

sidicks said:

You’ve entered zero debate on Target 2, just linked to the BBC website and offered nothing to the reasonable challenges posed to you, while throwing out insults int the process. That’s not ‘debate’.

Opinion noted, Have a fab afternoon x.

[Tuna]

Eddie Strohacker said:

sidicks said:

It’s really pathetic and suggests you are simply here to troll rather than debate.

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 18th October 14:27

No no, you misunderstand. I am here to debate & do so daily, as any cursory glance through these threads will demonstrate. I just think you're a gimp. See? Different thing altogether.

I forgot to mention when I was doing the post counts - the number one offender when it came to insulting the other person was Eddie, by a factor of two.

[alfie2244]

Tuna said:

Eddie Strohacker said:

sidicks said:

It’s really pathetic and suggests you are simply here to troll rather than debate.

Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 18th October 14:27

No no, you misunderstand. I am here to debate & do so daily, as any cursory glance through these threads will demonstrate. I just think you're a gimp. See? Different thing altogether.

I forgot to mention when I was doing the post counts - the number one offender when it came to insulting the other person was Eddie, by a factor of two.

I demand a second count.

[Tuna]

I seem to recall various posters claiming there was no reason for the EU to offer the UK good terms for Brexit. ORD in particular was very clear that none of the EU governments would want to support the UK.

This just in:

German Ministry said:

We share the U.K.’s desire to secure a close partnership with the Union after its exit that covers economic and trade relations...[including a] comprehensive free-trade accord

Doesn't look like a disaster to me.

(References here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-16... - guaranteed free of Alistair Campbell)

[mx5nut]

KrissKross said:

So... what you are saying is when the EU falls apart we can start holding the people we vote for (more) accountable for our concerns and problems. Wouldn't that be nice, democracy and all that jazz.

We could, but we could have done that before. I'm sure we'll find somebody else to blame, instead.

The bogeyman may even still be the EU (I think "punishing us" or "always hated us" are the accepted narratives)

[drainbrain]

Tuna said:

I forgot to mention when I was doing the post counts - the number one offender when it came to insulting the other person was Eddie, by a factor of two.

How about the number of people each has managed to annoy? I'd be up for a wager on that one.

[mx5nut]

Tuna said:

German Ministry said:

We share the U.K.’s desire to secure a close partnership with the Union after its exit that covers economic and trade relations...[including a] comprehensive free-trade accord

Doesn't look like a disaster to me.

Sounds like they're aiming for Brexit in name only.

It's a winner from me.

[Eddie Strohacker]

alfie2244 said:

I demand a second count.

Me too, Alfie. Me too.

alfie2244 said:

Chickened out of giving a straight answer then?

[alfie2244]

Eddie Strohacker said:

alfie2244 said:

I demand a second count.

Me too, Alfie. Me too.

alfie2244 said:

Chickened out of giving a straight answer then?

But, but, but you yourself claimed to be the chicken expert.....I just like to give credit where it's due.

[KrissKross]

Mrr T said:

I choose the subject of break your child toys because this was an issue in the past and one dealt with by having regulatory standards and councils having trading standards obligations.

The fact that you can buy dodgy crap from China on ebay is not something the EU/UK/local council can do much about. Personally I avoid that type of item on ebay.

Interesting you admit to be a buyer of dodgy crap from China which you then sold on in the UK. You obviously had no idea of your legal obligations. Maybe it good you stopped I have seen local councils prosecution of a number of such traders and the fines where eye watering.

1. It was more than likely dealt with by a product designer or engineer who used common sense to avoid killing children, the people you mentioned just wrote some stuff down on paper following such common sense.

2. EU and all arguments aside, I have a real issue with China and would ban probably 90% of imports overnight. They are destroying our planet and killing millions of people but as long as you get cheap stuff who cares!

3. To much to explain but I used to own a small factory in China + 8 staff operating the place. My job became quality control in every aspect of the word and took up far too much of my time, items imported do not adhere to rules and regulations unless you are large enough to create a compliance system. Plus much more....... I was not selling the usual tat you may well be thinking of and yes I have huge morals, hence point # 2, After spending years back / forth to China you would not believe the horrors that happen there.

[ORD]

Tuna said:

I seem to recall various posters claiming there was no reason for the EU to offer the UK good terms for Brexit. ORD in particular was very clear that none of the EU governments would want to support the UK.

This just in:

German Ministry said:

We share the U.K.’s desire to secure a close partnership with the Union after its exit that covers economic and trade relations...[including a] comprehensive free-trade accord

Doesn't look like a disaster to me.

(References here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-16... - guaranteed free of Alistair Campbell)

Almost no chance of any such deal while the Govt is in the thrall of Brexit nutters.

"No freedom of movement!" says Davis.

"Oh" says the EU.

"And no ECJ jurisdiction!" says Davis.

"Oh" says the EU.

End of discussion on free trade.

[sidicks]

ORD said:

Almost no chance of any such deal while the Govt is in the thrall of Brexit nutters.

"No freedom of movement!" says Davis.

"Oh" says the EU.

"And no ECJ jurisdiction!" says Davis.

"Oh" says the EU.

End of discussion on free trade.

How do we manage to trade with the rest of the world, yet not have free movement with them or be subject to their Courts?

[KrissKross]

mx5nut said:

KrissKross said:

So... what you are saying is when the EU falls apart we can start holding the people we vote for (more) accountable for our concerns and problems. Wouldn't that be nice, democracy and all that jazz.

We could, but we could have done that before. I'm sure we'll find somebody else to blame, instead.

The bogeyman may even still be the EU (I think "punishing us" or "always hated us" are the accepted narratives)

Nothing to do with blame, but accountability.

When something gets too large (with people) you can never pinpoint the fault. The NHS is a good example.

If we have 10 people to blame instead of 1000 it gets easier, surely you must agree?

[Mrr T]

Digga said:

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

The EU's mismanagement of their greater borders has also exposed us to various hazards.

How did they miss manage it? The external borders of the EU are not a EU competency.

It's widely acknowledged that Merkel's "come to Europe, one and all" invitation was crass stupidity, even if she/they were prepared to accept refugees. there was absolutely no coherent EU policy when the Syrian migrant ciris hit, no EU policy when the boatload of refugees were drowning en route to both Italy and Greece. The vacuum has caused immense strain on and increasing resentment in many border nations. Many of these same nations are now at loggerheads with the EU. So aside from that, no mismanagement. Or putting it another way, what policies have they implemented? Anything tangibly useful seems to have been done arbitrarily at national level.

1.) You seem to struggle with this EU thing.

2.) Irregular immigration is not an EU matter.

3.) Mrs M comments on immigration where not the comments of the EU they were her comments many other EU leaders were horrified.

The EU cannot plan or police irregular immigration in the EU because they have no powers.

4.) No counties are in dispute with the EU over irregular immigration. There is a dispute amongst the Schengen signatories by a request from German to move irregular immigrants to other Schengen countries. However, since the German treaty obligations on irregular immigration will override the Schengen agreement its highly unlikely to happen.

One of leave teams failing is to constantly blame the EU for things the EU are not responsible for.

Edited by Mrr T on Wednesday 18th October 14:10

1. No, it's pretty straightforward really.
2. Irregular immigration into the EU is our problem as soon as they arrived in the EU and decide the UK is their destination of choice. It's very hard for us to prevent this under the current system.
3. You and I both know Merkel often acts and and is taken as being a de-facto spokesperson for the EU.
4. I beg to differ and think you're splitting hairs -whether direct immigration or the re-location of refugees is a moot point - there is a dispute:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/06/eu-cour...

Let me assist you with this EU thing. The EU is made up of a number of countries bound together by treaties which create the EU, which is really 3 things the Council, the Commission, and the Parliament. There are a lot of other EU intuitions of which an important one is the ECJ which oversees the correct implementation of the treaties.

In addition to being joined in the EU the EU members have other relationship which are not covered in the EU treaties. The EU countries are all signatures to the UN conventions of refugees.

The EU has no legal personality so is not a signature to the convention. Therefore the EU has no status with regard to irregular immigrates except to coordinate where practical.

MrsT maybe an influential leader of an important EU country she does not speak for the EU on irregular immigration she speaks for German.

1. I hope the above helps.

2. As explained above this is about the countries in the EU not the EU.

3. I hope the above helps.

4. The only provisions relating to irregular immigration within the EU treaties is the Schengen Treaty which was assimilated into EU law by the Treaty of Amsterdam. The Schengen treaty included provisions for distribution of irregular immigrants under certain circumstances. All countries who signed up to those provisions in the Amsterdam treaty knew the provisions where there. The is a dispute on this matter between some of the EU countries over these provisions and the ECJ has at the request of the countries in dispute given its judgement. As I said I do not expect to see this actually happen since German’s obligations under the convention will override the treaty obligations.

[Digga]

Mrr T said:

MrsT maybe an influential leader...

I hate to break this to you, I know you were a big fan, but she's dead.

As for item 4. you are, of course correct, the nations who signed up to the EU also signed up to these measures. However, that's about as practical and realistic as saying Greece was a fully signed-up and fiscally compliant member on accession; everything is fudged and the 'rules' are okay until or unless they impact on a nation and then they come under intense scrutiny by a population who were broadly ignorant of what they were being drawn into at the start.

The very issues we see are symptomatic of the failings of the top-down system any organisation like the EU inevitably creates.

[///ajd]

mx5nut said:

KrissKross said:

mx5nut said:

KrissKross said:

Have you seen some of the dangerous crap you can buy from China on eBay

Utter rubbish. China is outside of the EU - we're not allowed to trade with them until we leave. Take back control!

Eh?

The EUSSR stops us from trading with the rest of the world. We need to spend a lot of money on Brexit before we can buy that dangerous crap you've seen.

Nicely exposed contradiction. Good work.