How do we think EU negotiations will go?
Discussion
hyphen said:
sidicks said:
Breadvan72 said:
If making a net contribution is to be a test for residence rights, why apply this only to people not born here? Also, over what period do you measure contribution? I contributed Jack Diddly to the UK until I was about 25. I was a totes sponger of education and healthcare and even dole in student hols. Since then (30 years tomorrow, 'kinnell) I have been a net contributor.
I’d have thought that was fairly obvious.
B'stard Child said:
...
Society needs a mix of employment - some jobs pay lower wages doesn't mean they are any less important in the function or the country of the balance of society.
I agree, but some here seem to fixate on net payment in. It seems that rights may have to be purchased.Society needs a mix of employment - some jobs pay lower wages doesn't mean they are any less important in the function or the country of the balance of society.
Breadvan72 said:
No, it's not obvious.
Not to you, clearly.Breadvan72 said:
I am always keen to learn why Brexit positions aren't just "ooh, foreigners" positions.
It’s thats your interpretation of this position, then maybe you aren’t as clever as you repeatedly like to portray.Breadvan72 said:
If we care about net contributions, and an investment banker from Toulouse is a more productive payer inner than a low income or unemployed bloke from Scarborough, why does the latter have greater rights than the former?
So being born in a place shouldn’t give you different rights? Er, ok.The freedom of movement of people disproportionately benefits differing socio-economic classes.
For example, for me in a middle class job earning many times the average salary, it'd be easy for me to just see the positives. Consistent house price rises, cheap (and quality) services, easy access into the EU.
However, the negatives are painfully obvious for my immediate family, friends and colleagues. The race to the bottom for salaries whilst rental prices or deposit requirements for purchases or indeed house prices are only moving in one direction, rapidly. Some on here are quite keen on FMOL whilst bemoaning lazy Brits - "Cut their benefits!".
I'm a carrot person rather than stick. I want to see encouragement of people into work. For me that means restrictions on certain groups of people coming in to promote salaries. Ergo, those on benefits are incentivised into work rather than forced. The alternative is enforced minimum wages which wouldn't actually help as the influx would merely be greater.
After all, any one of us is one accident, one bad decision, one change in personal circumstances away from being on benefits.
For example, for me in a middle class job earning many times the average salary, it'd be easy for me to just see the positives. Consistent house price rises, cheap (and quality) services, easy access into the EU.
However, the negatives are painfully obvious for my immediate family, friends and colleagues. The race to the bottom for salaries whilst rental prices or deposit requirements for purchases or indeed house prices are only moving in one direction, rapidly. Some on here are quite keen on FMOL whilst bemoaning lazy Brits - "Cut their benefits!".
I'm a carrot person rather than stick. I want to see encouragement of people into work. For me that means restrictions on certain groups of people coming in to promote salaries. Ergo, those on benefits are incentivised into work rather than forced. The alternative is enforced minimum wages which wouldn't actually help as the influx would merely be greater.
After all, any one of us is one accident, one bad decision, one change in personal circumstances away from being on benefits.
sidicks said:
[
Usual cheap personal attacks ...yawn]
Do you have anything positive to contribute? For example an explanation of what hyphen suggests is obvious? It's not obvious to me, hence the request.Usual cheap personal attacks ...yawn]
As for the personal attacks, do you think that these have effect? Do you think that if you insult people via a screen they will actually care? I am sorry to disappoint you if so.
sidicks said:
Breadvan72 said:
I agree, but some here seem to fixate on net payment in. It seems that rights may have to be purchased.
In that case, why do we need any restriction whatsoever on who comes here, either from the EU or outside?I add that the ultra free market position is that there should be no controls on immigration just as there should be no controls on business, no tariffs and so on. It's not my position, but it's a position that some on the right adopt.
JagLover said:
///ajd said:
Can you clarify who the “bad” are? We seem set to take fruit pickers in the numbers needed,
You mean under the old Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme, where the employer has to provide accommodation and pay the agricultural minimum wage?So the fruit pickers are OK them - I don’t see the agri wage issue suddenly making brits take the jobs, do you?
So if these aren’t the “bad ones” who are?
Breadvan72 said:
Do you have anything positive to contribute? For example an explanation of what hyphen suggests is obvious? It's not obvious to me, hence the request.
Do you not think that being born in a particularly country should not give you certain rights within that country?Why do we place greater restrictions on immigration from outside the EU. Why do we still have restrictions on immigration from within the EU?
Breadvan72 said:
As for the personal attacks, do you think that these have effect? Do you think that if you insult people via a screen they will actually care? I am sorry to disappoint you if so.
Given the condescending tone of the vast majority of posts, you might like to ask yourself the same question.Breadvan72 said:
hyphen said:
sidicks said:
Breadvan72 said:
If making a net contribution is to be a test for residence rights, why apply this only to people not born here? Also, over what period do you measure contribution? I contributed Jack Diddly to the UK until I was about 25. I was a totes sponger of education and healthcare and even dole in student hols. Since then (30 years tomorrow, 'kinnell) I have been a net contributor.
I’d have thought that was fairly obvious.Breadvan72 said:
As you bang on about that so much it maybe bothers you, in which case, bless. But you can take the view that words on a screen are words on a screen.
You were the one asking the question, so presumably it bothers you. In which case take a look at your own posts.edited to add ‘Bless’.
There is no very principled basis for saying that X has more rights than Y because X was born in a A Land whilst Y was born in B Land. It is a purely pragmatic and historically based rule. Blood and soil are not rational principles. Then, once you start measuring how much people contribute to A Land and make that a relevant decision factor, why not ask if X contributes as much as Y?
///ajd said:
It seems we may get some kind of new scheme, if politicians are to be believed.
So the fruit pickers are OK them - I don’t see the agri wage issue suddenly making brits take the jobs, do you?
So if these aren’t the “bad ones” who are?
Given that the issue is importing people who are burden on the taxpayer the design of that particular scheme help to ensure that those brought in are not a burden. So the fruit pickers are OK them - I don’t see the agri wage issue suddenly making brits take the jobs, do you?
So if these aren’t the “bad ones” who are?
Once labour is properly priced then automation would take care of a great many low skilled jobs in any case. the issue is not whether natives would do the jobs, but why are we subsidizing businesses at public expense while increasing population density.
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