something afoot in Turkey?

[Tom Logan]

Robertj21a said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

... and the world's worst fking drivers too!

Probably a tie between the Turks, Italians and Indians.

You forgot the French and the Belgians.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Cobnapint said:

Erdogan could well trigger a civil war in Turkey if he carries on being a tt.

He has the potential to become the next Assad.

Well that's what everyone has said for a few years now, the sad reality is it becomes more likely with each passing day.

[Guvernator]

The situation seem to just get worse and worse. Turkey is in a very key geographical area being the literal bridge between Europe and the Middle East\Asia. Add in the fact that it's literally on Russia's doorstep and you have the ideal melting pot for trouble.

Lots of external forces have an interest in meddling and either trying to buddy up to them or alternatively to destabilise them for their own ends. Add in a leader Erdogan who seems hell bent on dragging the country back to the dark ages in his quest for money\presidential power and it really is a st storm of trouble.

Relations with the US\the West soured, a Russian ambassador assassinated and everyone including the Russians trying to point the finger at the US. War's in neighbouring countries on several of it's borders, a massive Syrian refugee crisis and internal conflict and strife both with the Kurds and between the fundamentalist and secular parts of the population.

Russia and the US also seem set to fight their next proxy war in this country which really is a dangerous game. The local population are stuck in the middle of all this, the problem is half of them are sleepwalking into this situation not realising the danger they are in because they've been hoodwinked by Erdogan into thinking he is serving there best interests and everything will be fine.

Lots of people with more sense are trying to flee the country if they can, this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does but I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel at this point. The more enlightened\educated people are seriously outnumbered already and opposition is being ruthlessly stifled. I can seriously see Turkey becoming the next Iran. Isolated, in constant conflict internally and with it's neighbours and a population controlled in the name of religion.

[Cheburator mk2]

Guvernator said:

.. lots of good stuff...

... I can seriously see Turkey becoming the next Iran. Isolated, in constant conflict internally and with it's neighbours and a population controlled in the name of religion.

However, Iran is sandwiched in the ME - kind of close, but sufficiently out of the way, while Turkey is on the doorstep of Europe (or its arse end, point of view dependent) hence the potential for trouble is even bigger. Add Erdo's open desire to restore Turkey to the Glory Days of the Ottoman Empire, which is not going down well with the Greeks/Armenians/Bulgarians/Russians etc. and the potential for a clusterfk is even bigger...

[Digga]

The moment Turkey failed to be gatekeeper to the EU and allowed (encouraged for political gain even, perhaps?) a flood of immigrants, by sea and land, into the EU it became less relevant and less useful. It was strategically useful as a buffer between the EU and the ME, until it was no longer a buffer.

I've also absolutely no idea what it thought it could gain from gunning down Russian military aircraft - that also made them political pariahs.

[Munter]

Digga said:

I've also absolutely no idea what it thought it could gain from gunning down Russian military aircraft - that also made them political pariahs.

That was a military decision, not a political one. An armed Russian plane, on a real operation, strayed into Turkish territory without permission. So the Turkish defence forces warned it, then shot it out the sky.

You either defend a border, or you don't really have a border. They defended their border in a perfectly understandable way. Particularly if you're the grunt on the ground who might be "accidentally" killed by the pilot of that plane who is clearly lost, and could mistake you for the target.

[Digga]

Munter said:

Digga said:

I've also absolutely no idea what it thought it could gain from gunning down Russian military aircraft - that also made them political pariahs.

That was a military decision, not a political one. An armed Russian plane, on a real operation, strayed into Turkish territory without permission. So the Turkish defence forces warned it, then shot it out the sky.

You either defend a border, or you don't really have a border. They defended their border in a perfectly understandable way. Particularly if you're the grunt on the ground who might be "accidentally" killed by the pilot of that plane who is clearly lost, and could mistake you for the target.

From the articles and explanations I saw, it was a very 'grey' area and might easily have been allowed to go unchallenged - the Russians are not likely to be bombing Turkey.

[Robertj21a]

Guvernator said:

---

Edit

---

Russia and the US also seem set to fight their next proxy war in this country which really is a dangerous game. The local population are stuck in the middle of all this, the problem is half of them are sleepwalking into this situation not realising the danger they are in because they've been hoodwinked by Erdogan into thinking he is serving there best interests and everything will be fine.

Lots of people with more sense are trying to flee the country if they can, this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does but I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel at this point. The more enlightened\educated people are seriously outnumbered already and opposition is being ruthlessly stifled. I can seriously see Turkey becoming the next Iran. Isolated, in constant conflict internally and with it's neighbours and a population controlled in the name of religion.

^^^^^^

This - absolutely.

I've spent some time in Istanbul and there's a good many there who have seen through Erdogan. Unfortunately, they're now well outnumbered by the 'sheep'.

[Guvernator]

They are blaming the shooting down of the Russian airplane and now the killing of the Russian ambassador on Feto, the religious cleric who was in bed with Erdogan until they had a falling out over money and who is now living in Pennsylvania under the protection of the US.

Erdogan allowed Feto to place thousands of his followers within the security, police and armed forces of Turkey which was partly how Erdogan was able to rise to power but now they are no longer friends, Feto is public enemy number one and these Feto'ists are being made the scapegoat for anything and everything.

The fact that Feto is now under US protection plays right into Erdogans hands of blaming the West for all of Turkey's ills. You really couldn't make it up.

[Digga]

Guvernator said:

They are blaming the shooting down of the Russian airplane and now the killing of the Russian ambassador on Feto, the religious cleric who was in bed with Erdogan until they had a falling out over money and who is now living in Pennsylvania under the protection of the US.

Erdogan allowed Feto to place thousands of his followers within the security, police and armed forces of Turkey which was partly how Erdogan was able to rise to power but now they are no longer friends, Feto is public enemy number one and these Feto'ists are being made the scapegoat for anything and everything.

The fact that Feto is now under US protection plays right into Erdogans hands of blaming the West for all of Turkey's ills. You really couldn't make it up.

And at the same time as that useless stuffed-shirt bk Oblimey seems intent on using his last days in the White House to stoke up further agitation in Moscow.

[Guvernator]

Digga said:

And at the same time as that useless stuffed-shirt bk Oblimey seems intent on using his last days in the White House to stoke up further agitation in Moscow.

I know we've been here before with numerous other Russian Vs US proxy wars but this situation really feels a lot more dangerous. World wars have been started over the silliest things, if two of the super powers of the world keep insisting on playing with fire, eventually something is going to burn very badly.

[Digga]

Guvernator said:

Digga said:

And at the same time as that useless stuffed-shirt bk Oblimey seems intent on using his last days in the White House to stoke up further agitation in Moscow.

I know we've been here before with numerous other Russian Vs US proxy wars but this situation really feels a lot more dangerous. World wars have been started over the silliest things, if two of the super powers of the world keep insisting on playing with fire, eventually something is going to burn very badly.

It is one of the single biggest reasons why I am actually not totally against Trump and also why I think Clinton would have been more of the same disaster as Obama. There seems to be a needless escalation - people with political influence clearly have a lot at stake, but as you say, the risks are very high with this game.

[ooid]

Almost 11 years ago, quite steamy saturday evening in Istanbul, me and my ex-girlfriend were not allowed to enter to this night club (Reina?) as we did not have any reservation I was gobsmacked about their intense security guards in the door, quite shocking and sad to see this actually happened.

[B'stard Child]

ooid said:

Almost 11 years ago, quite steamy saturday evening in Istanbul, me and my ex-girlfriend were not allowed to enter to this night club (Reina?) as we did not have any reservation I was gobsmacked about their intense security guards in the door, quite shocking and sad to see this actually happened.

Not sure why you'd want to go to a nightclub with an ex-girlfriend - seems like a daft thing to do

[Cobnapint]

ooid said:

Almost 11 years ago, quite steamy saturday evening in Istanbul, me and my ex-girlfriend were not allowed to enter to this night club (Reina?) as we did not have any reservation I was gobsmacked about their intense security guards in the door, quite shocking and sad to see this actually happened.

It's not unusual, is it, not being let into a nightclub if your names 'not on the list'.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Guvernator said:

The situation seem to just get worse and worse. Turkey is in a very key geographical area being the literal bridge between Europe and the Middle East\Asia. Add in the fact that it's literally on Russia's doorstep and you have the ideal melting pot for trouble.

Lots of external forces have an interest in meddling and either trying to buddy up to them or alternatively to destabilise them for their own ends. Add in a leader Erdogan who seems hell bent on dragging the country back to the dark ages in his quest for money\presidential power and it really is a st storm of trouble.

Relations with the US\the West soured, a Russian ambassador assassinated and everyone including the Russians trying to point the finger at the US. War's in neighbouring countries on several of it's borders, a massive Syrian refugee crisis and internal conflict and strife both with the Kurds and between the fundamentalist and secular parts of the population.

Russia and the US also seem set to fight their next proxy war in this country which really is a dangerous game. The local population are stuck in the middle of all this, the problem is half of them are sleepwalking into this situation not realising the danger they are in because they've been hoodwinked by Erdogan into thinking he is serving there best interests and everything will be fine.

Lots of people with more sense are trying to flee the country if they can, this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does but I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel at this point. The more enlightened\educated people are seriously outnumbered already and opposition is being ruthlessly stifled. I can seriously see Turkey becoming the next Iran. Isolated, in constant conflict internally and with it's neighbours and a population controlled in the name of religion.

Good overview and agree.

Your comment:
"The local population are stuck in the middle of all this, the problem is half of them are sleepwalking into this situation not realising the danger they are in because they've been hoodwinked by Erdogan into thinking he is serving there best interests and everything will be fine."

The problem here is the use of religion as a polarising mechanism to garner support for the AKP (read: Erdogan) to ensure he can manipulate the nation by driving through the current proposed constitutional changes (as you pointed out above).

His ambitions are:
1. Personal wealth (plenty of that he's looted from this place and tucked away),
2. Limitless power for himself (to ensure point 1 continues without repercussions - Parliament has been manipulated to ensure several ministers, their families, and Erdogan cannot be prosecuted for corruption),
3. Religion (enough written about him on this topic), and
4. Holing other countries to ransom to ensure he has control.

"The more enlightened\educated people are seriously outnumbered already and opposition is being ruthlessly stifled. I can seriously see Turkey becoming the next Iran." - yes that is what most people here have been saying for the past 5 to 6 years. Unfortunately I've noticed a lot "less" enlightenment" here in the past 3 years or so, most of my friends and business associates cringe with embarrassment at what's going on.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Digga said:

The moment Turkey failed to be gatekeeper to the EU and allowed (encouraged for political gain even, perhaps?) a flood of immigrants, by sea and land, into the EU it became less relevant and less useful. It was strategically useful as a buffer between the EU and the ME, until it was no longer a buffer.

I've also absolutely no idea what it thought it could gain from gunning down Russian military aircraft - that also made them political pariahs.

Neither do they, it seemed like a good idea at the time - but money talks and bullst walks and Doggers had to make up with Vlad and kiss his arse as the economy was starting to suffer (less money for Doggers and his mates).
It was Erdogan's previous puppet Davutoglu - now the AKP government says it was the Gulenists (FETO terrorist organisation) who were behind it / ordered it.
fking clowns - they think we're all stupid.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Robertj21a said:

^^^^^^

This - absolutely.

I've spent some time in Istanbul and there's a good many there who have seen through Erdogan. Unfortunately, they're now well outnumbered by the 'sheep'.

EFA:

I've spent some time in Istanbul and there's a good many there who have seen through Erdogan. Unfortunately, they're now well outnumbered by the 'goats'.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Guvernator said:

You really couldn't make it up.

Unless you're Erdogan

[Likes Fast Cars]

Digga said:

And at the same time as that useless stuffed-shirt bk Oblimey seems intent on using his last days in the White House to stoke up further agitation in Moscow.

oh fk yes that really will be entertaining to see what the Donald does about it after 20 January

Another bk Oblimey mess to clean up.....