US Police Shoot Unarmed Man With His Hands Up
Discussion
Did they pull up on the pavement or on the road? If they pulled up on the road they may have given themselves time to asses the situation. Did they take note that the 911 caller did say she thinks it's a child? Did they speak to the child in the 2 seconds before they shot him?
As I said the training is off.
As I said the training is off.
ZX10R NIN said:
Whilst that's a shame is that across the whole of the US because I wonder what the figure is for those that were unarmed & shot/killed.
No one is saying all the police are bad what most are saying is the training is off, being a police doesn't even make the top 5 off most dangerous jobs when it comes to numbers killed in the US.
What people are saying is asses the situation, a man breaking up a fight is not an aggressor therefore doesn't need to be placed in a chokehold & killed, a kid playing in the park doesn't need to be shot less than two seconds after pulling up on the grass etc, that's why there's a thread for this.
What a ridiculous and facile comment this is - either you are a bit thick, or you are deliberately being insulting to the hundreds of US police officers who are maimed or murdered each year by criminals. No one is saying all the police are bad what most are saying is the training is off, being a police doesn't even make the top 5 off most dangerous jobs when it comes to numbers killed in the US.
What people are saying is asses the situation, a man breaking up a fight is not an aggressor therefore doesn't need to be placed in a chokehold & killed, a kid playing in the park doesn't need to be shot less than two seconds after pulling up on the grass etc, that's why there's a thread for this.
Falling off a roof, or having a tree drop on you, because you are an inept roofer or logger isn't quite the same as being ambushed, shot or run over by murderous felons.
Assessing the situation - giving the scenario a damned good thinking about, while having to deal with the threat of being gunned-down in a heartbeat isn't reality.
I don't particularly like these meme things, but this one is relevant:
Matt Harper said:
What a ridiculous and facile comment this is - either you are a bit thick, or you are deliberately being insulting to the hundreds of US police officers who are maimed or murdered each year by criminals.
Falling off a roof, or having a tree drop on you, because you are an inept roofer or logger isn't quite the same as being ambushed, shot or run over by murderous felons.
Assessing the situation - giving the scenario a damned good thinking about, while having to deal with the threat of being gunned-down in a heartbeat isn't reality.
I don't particularly like these meme things, but this one is relevant:
It would help if half these people executed by the police were actually armed with even a bb gun in the first place. There might even be some justification for their actions then.Falling off a roof, or having a tree drop on you, because you are an inept roofer or logger isn't quite the same as being ambushed, shot or run over by murderous felons.
Assessing the situation - giving the scenario a damned good thinking about, while having to deal with the threat of being gunned-down in a heartbeat isn't reality.
I don't particularly like these meme things, but this one is relevant:
This biggest problem seems to be that an idiot logger will likely kill them self. An idiot cop will likely kill innocent people.
Rude-boy said:
It would help if half these people executed by the police were actually armed with even a bb gun in the first place. There might even be some justification for their actions then.
This biggest problem seems to be that an idiot logger will likely kill them self. An idiot cop will likely kill innocent people.
Your crazy exaggerations aside (half of people shot by police are unarmed is horsesThis biggest problem seems to be that an idiot logger will likely kill them self. An idiot cop will likely kill innocent people.
t, as you probably know), the inference that US policing is not particularly dangerous, when compared to occupations like logging, commercial fishing, roofing etc., is highly offensive to those in law enforcement. Accidental deaths (unfortunate as they are) are not quite the same as intentional homicides. I'd hope that any sane person would accept that. The chances of you being ambushed and shot to death whilst cutting down trees is pretty remote. Matt Harper said:
What a ridiculous and facile comment this is - either you are a bit thick, or you are deliberately being insulting to the hundreds of US police officers who are maimed or murdered each year by criminals.
Falling off a roof, or having a tree drop on you, because you are an inept roofer or logger isn't quite the same as being ambushed, shot or run over by murderous felons.
Assessing the situation - giving the scenario a damned good thinking about, while having to deal with the threat of being gunned-down in a heartbeat isn't reality.
I don't particularly like these meme things, but this one is relevant:
I don't need to insult anyone (but you seem to like to) when you say hundreds of police officers murdered don't you mean 42, also the injury stats as work injuries are included in those figures. With 1134 people shot & killed by police it would seem it's more dangerous being a civilian! (that was sarcasm).Falling off a roof, or having a tree drop on you, because you are an inept roofer or logger isn't quite the same as being ambushed, shot or run over by murderous felons.
Assessing the situation - giving the scenario a damned good thinking about, while having to deal with the threat of being gunned-down in a heartbeat isn't reality.
I don't particularly like these meme things, but this one is relevant:
No insults needed just have to look at the numbers, also your picture proves my point Tamir Rice wasn't pointing a gun at anyone so they had time to asses the situation they didn't the car wasn't stopped & 2 seconds later dead.
Also about 7% of all white people fatally shot by the police were unarmed in the case of black people that figure rises to 35%.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Friday 14th October 23:02
ZX10R NIN said:
I don't need to insult anyone (but you seem to like to) when you say hundreds of police officers murdered don't you mean 42, also the injury stats as work injuries are included in those figures. With 1134 people shot & killed by police it would seem it's more dangerous being a civilian! (that was sarcasm).
No insults needed just have to look at the numbers, also your picture proves my point Tamir Rice wasn't pointing a gun at anyone so they had time to asses the situation they didn't the car wasn't stopped & 2 seconds later dead.
Also about 7% of all white people fatally shot by the police were unarmed in the case of black people that figure rises to 35%.
I said hundreds murdered and maimed.No insults needed just have to look at the numbers, also your picture proves my point Tamir Rice wasn't pointing a gun at anyone so they had time to asses the situation they didn't the car wasn't stopped & 2 seconds later dead.
Also about 7% of all white people fatally shot by the police were unarmed in the case of black people that figure rises to 35%.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Friday 14th October 23:02
So what was Tamir Rice doing at the moment in question, then? Because he certainly wasn't just minding his own business prior to and during his shooting. Being shot by a 12 year-old is just as potentially lethal as being shot by anyone else, I suspect.
The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?
Your statistics could arguably be explained thusly - black people represent less than 13% of the US population, but apparently perpetrate nearly 60% of all violent crime. I wonder if there is any correlation with your stats?
Matt Harper said:
I said hundreds murdered and maimed.
So what was Tamir Rice doing at the moment in question, then? Because he certainly wasn't just minding his own business prior to and during his shooting. Being shot by a 12 year-old is just as potentially lethal as being shot by anyone else, I suspect.
The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?
Your statistics could arguably be explained thusly - black people represent less than 13% of the US population, but apparently perpetrate nearly 60% of all violent crime. I wonder if there is any correlation with your stats?
I take it you were on the force for a long time to see hundreds killed? So what was Tamir Rice doing at the moment in question, then? Because he certainly wasn't just minding his own business prior to and during his shooting. Being shot by a 12 year-old is just as potentially lethal as being shot by anyone else, I suspect.
The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?
Your statistics could arguably be explained thusly - black people represent less than 13% of the US population, but apparently perpetrate nearly 60% of all violent crime. I wonder if there is any correlation with your stats?
He was playing in the park with a toy gun he hadn't threatened anyone with it the 911 caller even stated she wasn't sure if it was a real gun.
No it doesn't get to 60% but of all violent crime as they now include Rape & Aggravated Assault as violent crimes which muddies the waters a bit, but yes black people commit more murders/manslaughter than whites by the tune of 500 over white people.
If someone is raped it's twice as likely to be a White person same with aggravated assault (where people are maimed) the last figure I saw was 54% for Murder/Manslaughter if you take population into account.
Also did you know up to 2016 if a police person has been shot & killed there's a 59% likelihood it will have been by a white person, same with violent assaults.
So while Black people are (let's use your figures for the sake of argument) responsible for 60% of all murder/manslaughter that doesn't mean as police person you more likely to be shot by a black person in fact it means the opposite if you roll up onto a violent situation the stats actually prove you'll be at a much lower risk (37%) of being shot at/attacked violently by a black person than a (56%) white one.
"The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?"
In this case yes it does as Tamir Rice didn't get a chance to interact he just got shot dead within 2 seconds.
So when the police come across black people they should actually feel safer & be less inclined to shoot first & ask questions later.
ZX10R NIN said:
Matt Harper said:
I said hundreds murdered and maimed.
So what was Tamir Rice doing at the moment in question, then? Because he certainly wasn't just minding his own business prior to and during his shooting. Being shot by a 12 year-old is just as potentially lethal as being shot by anyone else, I suspect.
The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?
Your statistics could arguably be explained thusly - black people represent less than 13% of the US population, but apparently perpetrate nearly 60% of all violent crime. I wonder if there is any correlation with your stats?
I take it you were on the force for a long time to see hundreds killed? So what was Tamir Rice doing at the moment in question, then? Because he certainly wasn't just minding his own business prior to and during his shooting. Being shot by a 12 year-old is just as potentially lethal as being shot by anyone else, I suspect.
The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?
Your statistics could arguably be explained thusly - black people represent less than 13% of the US population, but apparently perpetrate nearly 60% of all violent crime. I wonder if there is any correlation with your stats?
He was playing in the park with a toy gun he hadn't threatened anyone with it the 911 caller even stated she wasn't sure if it was a real gun.
No it doesn't get to 60% but of all violent crime as they now include Rape & Aggravated Assault as violent crimes which muddies the waters a bit, but yes black people commit more murders/manslaughter than whites by the tune of 500 over white people.
If someone is raped it's twice as likely to be a White person same with aggravated assault (where people are maimed) the last figure I saw was 54% for Murder/Manslaughter if you take population into account.
Also did you know up to 2016 if a police person has been shot & killed there's a 59% likelihood it will have been by a white person, same with violent assaults.
So while Black people are (let's use your figures for the sake of argument) responsible for 60% of all murder/manslaughter that doesn't mean as police person you more likely to be shot by a black person in fact it means the opposite if you roll up onto a violent situation the stats actually prove you'll be at a much lower risk (37%) of being shot at/attacked violently by a black person than a (56%) white one.
"The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?"
In this case yes it does as Tamir Rice didn't get a chance to interact he just got shot dead within 2 seconds.
So when the police come across black people they should actually feel safer & be less inclined to shoot first & ask questions later.
You might want to review the video of the prelude to Tamir Rice's shooting, because it clearly shows that he was threatening passers by with what appeared to be a hand gun.
I'm not in a position to determine if Tamir made an attempt to withdraw his gun when the cops showed up (as claimed by the cop that shot him), so I'm not as confident as you seem to be about what actually happened, because his actions (or lack of them) are not visible in the video.
It is true that more white people are shot by US police than black - though proportionately, it is much more likely that a US cop is going to be assaulted by a black person than a white one (this being statistical, not emotional nor subjective).
Maybe you have tactical firearms experience with law enforcement training responsibility - and therefore able to make value judgement on the quality and depth of training. I'm certainly not, but my daughter certainly is. Some of your previous commentary suggests to me that you aren't, but please correct me if I've made a bad assumption here.
I fully appreciate that law enforcement training and personality compatibility is not consistent in this country, due to the sheer numbers and the disparity and variety of agencies involved. That said, the reality is that US cops are at high risk of potentially deadly assault pretty much every shift and as a result behave with an elevated level of caution, wariness and suspicion. That isn't because they want to, it's because they have to.
The fact that there are so many armed felons - and those who actively want to do harm to police officers, is not really the fault of the police officers who have to engage with them every day.
Edited by Matt Harper on Saturday 15th October 15:39
Matt Harper said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Matt Harper said:
I said hundreds murdered and maimed.
So what was Tamir Rice doing at the moment in question, then? Because he certainly wasn't just minding his own business prior to and during his shooting. Being shot by a 12 year-old is just as potentially lethal as being shot by anyone else, I suspect.
The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?
Your statistics could arguably be explained thusly - black people represent less than 13% of the US population, but apparently perpetrate nearly 60% of all violent crime. I wonder if there is any correlation with your stats?
I take it you were on the force for a long time to see hundreds killed? So what was Tamir Rice doing at the moment in question, then? Because he certainly wasn't just minding his own business prior to and during his shooting. Being shot by a 12 year-old is just as potentially lethal as being shot by anyone else, I suspect.
The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?
Your statistics could arguably be explained thusly - black people represent less than 13% of the US population, but apparently perpetrate nearly 60% of all violent crime. I wonder if there is any correlation with your stats?
He was playing in the park with a toy gun he hadn't threatened anyone with it the 911 caller even stated she wasn't sure if it was a real gun.
No it doesn't get to 60% but of all violent crime as they now include Rape & Aggravated Assault as violent crimes which muddies the waters a bit, but yes black people commit more murders/manslaughter than whites by the tune of 500 over white people.
If someone is raped it's twice as likely to be a White person same with aggravated assault (where people are maimed) the last figure I saw was 54% for Murder/Manslaughter if you take population into account.
Also did you know up to 2016 if a police person has been shot & killed there's a 59% likelihood it will have been by a white person, same with violent assaults.
So while Black people are (let's use your figures for the sake of argument) responsible for 60% of all murder/manslaughter that doesn't mean as police person you more likely to be shot by a black person in fact it means the opposite if you roll up onto a violent situation the stats actually prove you'll be at a much lower risk (37%) of being shot at/attacked violently by a black person than a (56%) white one.
"The fact that people shot by police were not carrying weapons doesn't mean they were not trying to do harm to cops they were interacting with, does it?"
In this case yes it does as Tamir Rice didn't get a chance to interact he just got shot dead within 2 seconds.
So when the police come across black people they should actually feel safer & be less inclined to shoot first & ask questions later.
You might want to review the video of the prelude to Tamir Rice's shooting, because it clearly shows that he was threatening passers by with what appeared to be a hand gun.
I'm not in a position to determine if Tamir made an attempt to withdraw his gun when the cops showed up (as claimed by the cop that shot him), so I'm not as confident as you seem to be about what actually happened, because his actions (or lack of them) are not visible in the video.
It is true that more white people are shot by US police than black - though proportionately, it is much more likely that a US cop is going to be assaulted by a black person than a white one (this being statistical, not emotional nor subjective).
Maybe you have tactical firearms experience with law enforcement training responsibility - and therefore able to make value judgement on the quality and depth of training. I'm certainly not, but my daughter certainly is. Some of your previous commentary suggests to me that you aren't, but please correct me if I've made a bad assumption here.
I fully appreciate that law enforcement training and personality compatibility is not consistent in this country, due to the sheer numbers and the disparity and variety of agencies involved. That said, the reality is that US cops are at high risk of potentially deadly assault pretty much every shift and as a result behave with an elevated level of caution, wariness and suspicion. That isn't because they want to, it's because they have to.
The fact that there are so many armed felons - and those who actively want to do harm to police officers, is not really the fault of the police officers who have to engage with them every day.
Edited by Matt Harper on Saturday 15th October 15:39
Some of these will be due to action/inaction of the individual, but a significant number are down to the police officer acting rashly.
I follow a few websites who gather videos of police interactions (photographyisnotacrime.com , copblock ,etc) who undoubtedly have an agenda to push, but some of the police behaviour in these videos are appalling. Officers frequently inventing laws, etc.
Matt Harper said:
To reiterate (i.e. say it again) I said hundreds murdered and maimed. I'm not a US police officer - but my daughter is - and yes, during her tenure there have been hundreds of US officers killed intentionally (vs RTAs, heart attacks etc), since you ask.
You might want to review the video of the prelude to Tamir Rice's shooting, because it clearly shows that he was threatening passers by with what appeared to be a hand gun.
I'm not in a position to determine if Tamir made an attempt to withdraw his gun when the cops showed up (as claimed by the cop that shot him), so I'm not as confident as you seem to be about what actually happened, because his actions (or lack of them) are not visible in the video.
It is true that more white people are shot by US police than black - though proportionately, it is much more likely that a US cop is going to be assaulted by a black person than a white one (this being statistical, not emotional nor subjective).
Maybe you have tactical firearms experience with law enforcement training responsibility - and therefore able to make value judgement on the quality and depth of training. I'm certainly not, but my daughter certainly is. Some of your previous commentary suggests to me that you aren't, but please correct me if I've made a bad assumption here.
I fully appreciate that law enforcement training and personality compatibility is not consistent in this country, due to the sheer numbers and the disparity and variety of agencies involved. That said, the reality is that US cops are at high risk of potentially deadly assault pretty much every shift and as a result behave with an elevated level of caution, wariness and suspicion. That isn't because they want to, it's because they have to.
The fact that there are so many armed felons - and those who actively want to do harm to police officers, is not really the fault of the police officers who have to engage with them every day.
I didn't think you were in the force but your bias makes sense, no law enforcement training but I do have some close friends in armed response units & I was the in personal security industry for a long time, from that perspective as well as through having conversations with friends about these incidents (not just the shootings but the harassment & abuse) they saw the Tamir Rice, Falcon Heights & Mr Crutcher shootings as highly dubious & they'd be expecting at least a Manslaughter charge but it's a different perspective in the US.You might want to review the video of the prelude to Tamir Rice's shooting, because it clearly shows that he was threatening passers by with what appeared to be a hand gun.
I'm not in a position to determine if Tamir made an attempt to withdraw his gun when the cops showed up (as claimed by the cop that shot him), so I'm not as confident as you seem to be about what actually happened, because his actions (or lack of them) are not visible in the video.
It is true that more white people are shot by US police than black - though proportionately, it is much more likely that a US cop is going to be assaulted by a black person than a white one (this being statistical, not emotional nor subjective).
Maybe you have tactical firearms experience with law enforcement training responsibility - and therefore able to make value judgement on the quality and depth of training. I'm certainly not, but my daughter certainly is. Some of your previous commentary suggests to me that you aren't, but please correct me if I've made a bad assumption here.
I fully appreciate that law enforcement training and personality compatibility is not consistent in this country, due to the sheer numbers and the disparity and variety of agencies involved. That said, the reality is that US cops are at high risk of potentially deadly assault pretty much every shift and as a result behave with an elevated level of caution, wariness and suspicion. That isn't because they want to, it's because they have to.
The fact that there are so many armed felons - and those who actively want to do harm to police officers, is not really the fault of the police officers who have to engage with them every day.
Edited by Matt Harper on Saturday 15th October 15:39
My personal opinion is that the training is off & this is the reason for this situation, as for hundreds maimed then yes I can believe the but murdered the numbers say different.
I hope your daughter continues to come home safe everyday the same as I hope that innocent people do the same.
The thing is not every person the police come across isn't an armed felon some will not be a felon & be unarmed, some may not be felons & armed as is their right some will be mentally ill the police are supposed to be able to asses & work out what each individual situation requires imo personal opinion you don't do this in two seconds, I've watched the video & the way I view it is had they pulled up on the road they'd be far enough away to be able to asses if they perceived a threat & then take action.
Their hastiness meant that a child never went home after playing in the park.
We won't agree on this subject.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Sunday 16th October 00:16
5ohmustang said:
I was stopped late last night going home. The officer was well justified as I was deep in conversation with my wife, I didn't notice the speed I was going.
Interior lights on, hands on steering wheel. I was respectful, I did not take the cock approach of pulling out my cell phone to record. The officer was polite and respectful. Gave him my papers, he ran me through the system and I was good to go.
A little respect goes a long way.
Indeed - respect from both directions.Interior lights on, hands on steering wheel. I was respectful, I did not take the cock approach of pulling out my cell phone to record. The officer was polite and respectful. Gave him my papers, he ran me through the system and I was good to go.
A little respect goes a long way.
Edited by 5ohmustang on Sunday 16th October 02:25
Lucas CAV said:
5ohmustang said:
I was stopped late last night going home. The officer was well justified as I was deep in conversation with my wife, I didn't notice the speed I was going.
Interior lights on, hands on steering wheel. I was respectful, I did not take the cock approach of pulling out my cell phone to record. The officer was polite and respectful. Gave him my papers, he ran me through the system and I was good to go.
A little respect goes a long way.
Indeed - respect from both directions.Interior lights on, hands on steering wheel. I was respectful, I did not take the cock approach of pulling out my cell phone to record. The officer was polite and respectful. Gave him my papers, he ran me through the system and I was good to go.
A little respect goes a long way.
Edited by 5ohmustang on Sunday 16th October 02:25
Bigends said:
Lucas CAV said:
5ohmustang said:
I was stopped late last night going home. The officer was well justified as I was deep in conversation with my wife, I didn't notice the speed I was going.
Interior lights on, hands on steering wheel. I was respectful, I did not take the cock approach of pulling out my cell phone to record. The officer was polite and respectful. Gave him my papers, he ran me through the system and I was good to go.
A little respect goes a long way.
Indeed - respect from both directions.Interior lights on, hands on steering wheel. I was respectful, I did not take the cock approach of pulling out my cell phone to record. The officer was polite and respectful. Gave him my papers, he ran me through the system and I was good to go.
A little respect goes a long way.
Edited by 5ohmustang on Sunday 16th October 02:25
ZX10R NIN said:
I didn't think you were in the force but your bias makes sense, no law enforcement training but I do have some close friends in armed response units & I was the in personal security industry for a long time, from that perspective as well as through having conversations with friends about these incidents (not just the shootings but the harassment & abuse) they saw the Tamir Rice, Falcon Heights & Mr Crutcher shootings as highly dubious & they'd be expecting at least a Manslaughter charge but it's a different perspective in the US.
My personal opinion is that the training is off & this is the reason for this situation, as for hundreds maimed then yes I can believe the but murdered the numbers say different.
I hope your daughter continues to come home safe everyday the same as I hope that innocent people do the same.
The thing is not every person the police come across isn't an armed felon some will not be a felon & be unarmed, some may not be felons & armed as is their right some will be mentally ill the police are supposed to be able to asses & work out what each individual situation requires imo personal opinion you don't do this in two seconds, I've watched the video & the way I view it is had they pulled up on the road they'd be far enough away to be able to asses if they perceived a threat & then take action.
Their hastiness meant that a child never went home after playing in the park.
We won't agree on this subject.
Probably right - it just gets up my nose a bit when the armchair police tactical experts use their hypothesis (rather than actual knowledge) as fact - having scant understanding of the realities.My personal opinion is that the training is off & this is the reason for this situation, as for hundreds maimed then yes I can believe the but murdered the numbers say different.
I hope your daughter continues to come home safe everyday the same as I hope that innocent people do the same.
The thing is not every person the police come across isn't an armed felon some will not be a felon & be unarmed, some may not be felons & armed as is their right some will be mentally ill the police are supposed to be able to asses & work out what each individual situation requires imo personal opinion you don't do this in two seconds, I've watched the video & the way I view it is had they pulled up on the road they'd be far enough away to be able to asses if they perceived a threat & then take action.
Their hastiness meant that a child never went home after playing in the park.
We won't agree on this subject.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Sunday 16th October 00:16
I do believe that if Crutcher had complied - and not reached into the open window of his car, when a cop was pointing a gun at him (which he most definitely did do), he'd still be around, psychotically terrorizing the general populace today.
I have no opinion regarding the MN shooting, because all of the video was post-event. I suspect it is very likely that the cop was unjustified - and overly anxious on learning the passenger was a CCW. When there is a gun involved (other than that of the cop) CCW holders need to be compliant and follow officer instructions to the letter. I'm not suggesting this man did anything other than that, but we cannot determine that from the video.
Our differences on this subject aside, I very much appreciate your kind sentiment regarding my kid. Thank you for that.
Elroy Blue said:
Rude-boy said:
executed
Another brave, brave keyboard warrior. The US has significant problems within their law enforcement . They need to address this, not just keep making excuses. It seems that there are plenty though who are ready to excuse even the worst.
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